90 Player Online KO SnG - AA UTG First Hand (2 Viewers)

[Quad Johnson]

This happened years ago pre Black Friday. I like to talk about this hand with friends of mine to see what they would've done.

90 Player Full Tilt KO SnG - $7.50 ($5.50+$1.50 KO + $1) - 1st place is $143

Everyone has a 3000 starting stack. Blinds are 15/30.

Hero (UTG) with raises to 5x the BB to 150.
UTG+1 folds.
UTG+2 3 bets to 450.
MP1 folds.
MP2 raises all in to 3000.
CO folds.
Button calls all in.
SB folds.
BB calls all in.

Hero: ?

 

[Perthmike]

Make the worlds fastest snap call because who gives a shit about $7.50?

In all seriousness I guess you have to snap call regardless, but I suppose that aa isn’t going to hold up too many times against what is probably going to be 4 opponents.

 

[Quad Johnson]

who gives a shit about $7.50?

At the time, I was a poor college student that's an aspiring poker player attempting to build a bankroll. I cared about $7.50!

 

[Thomacetti]

This happened years ago pre Black Friday. I like to talk about this hand with friends of mine to see what they would've done.

90 Player Full Tilt KO SnG - $7.50 ($5.50+$1.50 KO + $1) - 1st place is $143

Everyone has a 3000 starting stack. Blinds are 15/30.

Hero (UTG) with raises to 5x the BB to 150.
UTG+1 folds.
UTG+2 3 bets to 450.
MP1 folds.
MP2 raises all in to 3000.
CO folds.
Button calls all in.
SB folds.
BB calls all in.

Hero: ?

So you are asking us what to do when holding the nuts pre and 3 players pushed ?

 

[Nex]

Snap call. AA best starting hand, MP2 probably has KK/QQ or in rare cases the last two aces. Or he's just a donk who thinks he'll successfully bluffraise all in and start the tournament with a substantially bigger stack.
In any case, the only players staying in the hand at this point who will win against you are extremely lucky donks who go all-in preflop with hands that will net them a loss in the long run.

If you had KK instead It'd be a more difficult decision.

 

[Quad Johnson]

In a potential 5 way all in for a tournament life? I thought it was worth some merit. Cash game, fist pump shoving all day long. AA while the best starting hand, against 4 others is only about 55%, regardless of holdings.

Essentially you'd be coinflipping for your tournament life first hand.

 

[Nex]

Still, 55% is >50%, so playing the same situation infinitely often nets you a profit statistically.

At these buy-in levels, I'd say you're saving some nerves busting with THAT hand right at the start instead of playing for a long time then busting shortly before the money against some hardcore donk calling station that hit his 2 outer on the river.

 

[Thomacetti]

In a potential 5 way all in for a tournament life? I thought it was worth some merit. Cash game, fist pump shoving all day long. AA while the best starting hand against 4 others is only about 55%, regardless of holdings.

Essentially you'd be coinflipping for your tournament life first hand.

Back to the basics of poker odds....

If villains are holding KK & JJ...you are about 65% in favour... if 3 or 4-handed then you also have to take in account pot odds
When playing tournies...this is an easy call, same for cash.

 

[Perthmike]

In a potential 5 way all in for a tournament life? I thought it was worth some merit. Cash game, fist pump shoving all day long. AA while the best starting hand, against 4 others is only about 55%, regardless of holdings.

Essentially you'd be coinflipping for your tournament life first hand.

I kind of get your point, since I’m not one to get the money in pre flop unless Im pretty certain I’m ahead, but then you are coin flipping for 5 stacks and you do have the best possible hand.

If you do hold up, you have a massive chance to take down the whole thing.

 

[Quad Johnson]

Back to the basics of poker odds....

If villains are holding KK & JJ...you are about 65% in favour... if 3 or 4-handed then you also have to take in account pot odds
When playing tournies...this is an easy call, same for cash.

Admittedly, I didn't think of the pot odds potential in that particular moment. Definitely things I consider now. This particular situation was 10+ years ago and I was very novice at the time.

 

[upNdown]

It's a fair question. If it was the Main Event, I'd fold those aces. I'm not putting my whole tournament on the line, on a coin flip, on the first hand. But for some $7.50 online tournament, I couldn't call fast enough. I realize this is a terrible answer, because if stakes are influencing your poker decisions, you're playing at the wrong stakes.
The correct answer is to call. Always get it all in preflop with aces. Always. But I get your point - I'd hate to do it and I hope to never face that decision in the first hand of a tournament I care about.

 

[DrStrange]

Hero has been offered a great gift. He should graciously accept by calling all-in. Aces in this situation have something like 4,000 expected value while risking 1,500. Hero will not get this good a deal on a single bet again.

Hero gets to save his time should luck turn against him. There is a lot to be said for busting on hand one or getting a 5x starting stack to play in the event.
I would also be influenced by the certainty that someone at this table is going to have a monster stack on the second hand. Everyone is going to be forced to fight that monster for hours until the table breaks.

Press your luck. This is not a difficult decision. It isn't difficult playing in the WSOP main event any more than a $7.50 event or a pool hall free roll.

go big or go home! -=- DrStrange

 

[Quad Johnson]

I was waiting on the good doctors analysis. I very much enjoy your contributions to HA @DrStrange and was hoping you'd chime in.

The results:

Hero folds (I know, right?). I just signed in to play one and didn't want to risk my tournament life so early. I still question this move to this day, for it is obviously the only time I folded aces preflop. Because of this, I enjoy other people's thoughts. Most say ship it, some said they'd fold for the same reasons I did. Right or wrong, it was what happened.


The UTG+2 player called as well.

The player with the worst hand made a K high straight holding KQs and scooped the 4 way all in pot and took the early chip lead but fizzled out midway through the tournament and didn't cash.

 

[inca911]

Always get it all in preflop with aces. Always.

When the payout jumps are very large + you have a commanding stack that you’d be risking (i.e., multiple small stacks are probable to be knocked out before you), folding aces preflop can be the correct play. In the OP’s specific situation, I agree it’s an instant call.

 

[upNdown]

When the payout jumps are very large + you have a commanding stack that you’d be risking (i.e., multiple small stacks are probable to be knocked out), folding aces preflop can be the correct play. In the OP’s specific situation, I agree it’s an instant call.

That’s true, I’ve folded some pretty good hands in those situations, without a second thought.

 

[Quad Johnson]

FWIW, despite my bad fold, at least I went on to win? Donkaments baby!

 

[BGinGA]

In a potential 5 way all in for a tournament life? I thought it was worth some merit. Cash game, fist pump shoving all day long. AA while the best starting hand, against 4 others is only about 55%, regardless of holdings.

Essentially you'd be coinflipping for your tournament life first hand.

If somebody -- anybody, even the event organizers -- offered me a straight-up coin flip after paying my entry fee to either a) not get to play at all, or b) start the tournament with a 5x starting stack, I'd take the coin flip every.single.time. and quickly, before they changed their mind.

Regardless of the entry fee amount, too. Like the good Doctor said, it's a gift. And being 55% in this particular spot is a free 5% equity bonus over using a real coin. No-brainer.

 

[BGinGA]

@DrStrange also makes a great secondary point -- by folding, you automatically reduce your equity in the event.

Before this hand, you have a 1-in-10 chance (10%) vs the other nine players. By folding, your equity automatically drops far below 1-in-7 (roughly 7% vs 14%), because of the huge 4x stack that now belongs to one player. Same math principles apply to a multi-table event as well.

Folding is a double-whammy; you lose the potential equity gain of taking the risk, and lose real equity in the resulting fallout.

 

[Steve Birrer]

I had to re read the scenario twice to make sure I wasn't dreaming. Fold? Good grief you have to be kidding me. Insta call.

 

[Beakertwang]

@Quad Johnson, you can play FT tourneys for real money?

 

[Quad Johnson]

@Quad Johnson, you can play FT tourneys for real money?

Pre Black Friday, or pre April 15th, 2011.

The specific hand in question was from a tourney I played on FT back in 05 iirc.

 

[Beakertwang]

Pre Black Friday, or pre April 15th, 2011.

The specific hand in question was from a tourney I played on FT back in 05 iirc.

I skimmed right past the first line!

 

[SixSpeedFury]

@Quad Johnson, you can play FT tourneys for real money?

There are some websites and apps that allow this but it means putting your money at risk in an offshore account somewhere.

 

[Jimulacrum]

For a SnG, call all day. If this had instead been the first hand of the Main Event, it's a different question, and not just because of the buy-in amount.

Taking down this pot on the first hand of a SnG gives you more than half the chips in play, and thus a massive chance to win. Not only that, but a SnG has relatively short stacks and a fast structure, so it wouldn't be long before you'd have to start taking big risks anyway.

In the ME, it's a very different picture. Having a quintuple stack to start doesn't affect your chances to win nearly as much as it does in a single-table turbo tourney (nor does having a quadruple stack at your first table). The ME is a very long game, and the do-or-die part of the tourney where you need to take big chances is a long way off from level 1.

Not saying I'd fold AA preflop in the ME, but it's a legitimate option to consider. There are safer ways to accumulate chips.

 

[Quad Johnson]

I think some are failing to notice it was the first hand of a 90 player SnG. This was definitely not for half the chips in play.

 

[Quad Johnson]

Not to say that changes much, but it was a 15k pot if I played when there's 270k in play if it effects anyone's decisions.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I think some are failing to notice it was the first hand of a 90 player SnG. This was definitely not for half the chips in play.

Oh, durf, it's right there in the title.

I suppose it's not as clearly an auto-call for a 90-man SnG as opposed to a single-table SnG. However, having 1/18 of the chips in play when you're 1/86 of the field is still a lot more significant a lead than you'd get from the same win in the ME.

Based on this year's entries, you'd have about 1/1,569 of the chips in play, with almost 8,000 still in the field. Not terrible, obviously, but it's an open question as to whether it's worth taking a ballpark 35–40% risk against your tournament life on hand #1. It's especially questionable if you're an excellent player who would probably do fine making lower-variance plays over the longer game.

Also worth noting that the ME starts you with about 333 BB. This SnG starts you with 100 BB and has a much faster structure.

 

[Steve Birrer]

Bottom line. Unless we are close to the bubble and I have reason to fold to make the money I am never folding AA pre flop. I don't care what tournament I am playing.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Back then, I used to sometimes dink around with huge MTTs that had tiny buy-ins. You know, the $2-5 tourneys that would attract 2000+ players? There was always a frenzy during the first round or two where lots of players would just shove ATC hoping to 2x-4x their stack early before the "real poker" began.

In this particular spot, I'd Hellmuth my stack into the middle without a second thought.

 

[DoubleEagle]

I’m instacall here 100%.