Controversial Chip & Poker Opinions (9 Viewers)

[Schmendr1ck]

The screaming goat is my go to usually.

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I heard the scream in my head as soon as I saw it.

Probably didn't help that I was teasing my daughter with that meme about two hours ago.

 

[studog]

Alright maybe Im stuck on semantics, but hey, thats exactly what we're arguing, rules and their wording:

you said when betting action ends on the previous hand, then the next hand starts. So that means I call your all-in, all my chips go in a pot, and you're saying the next hand has started before we showdown and award a pot. Needs to be different terminology for that period.

Correct. The showdown etc resolves whist overlapping the time period of the next hand. I'm not sure what the confusion is.

The next dealing doesn't start until after the previous hand is resolved. Maybe that's the confusion?

Edit: In that example, assuming it's heads-up, betting action concludes when you say "call" when you're calling my all-in. At that point, the next hand is deemed started, and the next blinds will be whatever they are at that point in time. If the blind level goes up between when you say "call" and when we've resolved the pot, the next hand is deemed already started, and the blinds are at the old level for one last hand.

The betting action concluding is a point where at least 2 players are paying attention and usually more, especially with complex pots. It's a lot easier to pinpoint that moment in time vs the blind levels going up, than it is "the first riffle" or whatever the TDA specifies (it's been a while since I've read it). The first riffle doesn't even really exist in a two-deck home game anyway.

 

[chippitydoodah]

I mostly agreed with this except when my favorite set is Big Top Poker which going to cost me a fortune if I want to own a Clay set instead.

A 'fake' one is enough for me at the moment, until I won a lottery or get a huge inheritance or get a phone call from an African Prince.

Come on...be realistic...you know the African princes only email

 

[ArielVer18]

But ultimately, if you don't like using toys as cappers, then you don't have to use them. Stop telling other people they need to follow your rules, for no good reason.

Thanks for the idea. My next house rule update will have a new line to police card caps. Here's a draft (mostly stolen from WSOP's):

There will be no foreign objects on the felt except for card caps (also known as card protectors). Card caps can be no larger than two inches in diameter and no more than one-half inch in depth.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Thanks for the idea. My next house rule update will have a new line to police card caps. Here's a draft (mostly stolen from WSOP's):

There will be no foreign objects on the felt except for card caps (also known as card protectors). Card caps can be no larger than two inches in diameter and no more than one-half inch in depth.

 

[Poker Zombie]

While I have read the WSOP rule, I have had a one-on-one discussion with Jack Effel on the card capper rule.

In a nutshell, they do not enforce the rule. However given some of the bizarre outliers that attend the WSOP, some with the sole intent of creating distraction, angle-shooting, or flat-out cheating, they had to put something in the rules.

 

[BarrieJ3]

I don’t know if this is unpopular, but we don’t have a question thread. At this point I’m just very confused.

Which Tina chips am I supposed to hate? Which ones do I get mad at and which ones are okay?

I’m not even being a dick, I honestly don’t get it. We can’t or shouldn’t order THC Tina’s for reasons, but at the same time requested a new mold from her, which……looks exactly like an existing mold?

So is it frowned upon to do a recreation or tribute BCC set? Can I do The Sabbatical Room using the same fonts and colors?

 

[FestiveKnight]

I don’t know if this is unpopular, but we don’t have a question thread. At this point I’m just very confused.

Which Tina chips am I supposed to hate? Which ones do I get mad at and which ones are okay?

I’m not even being a dick, I honestly don’t get it. We can’t or shouldn’t order THC Tina’s for reasons, but at the same time requested a new mold from her, which……looks exactly like an existing mold?

So is it frowned upon to do a recreation or tribute BCC set? Can I do The Sabbatical Room using the same fonts and colors?

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I mean, you “can” of course do anything.

I don’t quite follow what you’re saying though. It seems you’re assuming the same people who are opposed to Tina chips (at least opposed to THC Tina’s) are the same people supporting LGK Tina’s. I don’t think these groups overlap much and so I don’t quite know what your confusion is.

It does however seem like you’re seeking approval to do something. So here’s my 2¢

There is a value in what Tina provides to the community in a cheap, fast, easy to customize product.

If you want a set you can design but otherwise wouldn’t mind purchasing dice chips, these are great. I’m not saying they’re dice chips, just that they’re basically the minimum viable product for most chippers. And that’s the place they should have.

But I think there’s a line that is kind of murky and very easy to cross on what one does with these. IP is a curious difficult thing to wrestle with. So is misleading others with replicas.

I can’t draw a perfectly neat line in the sand for what’s acceptable and not for these. But asking the question to begin with is not a bad idea. But if you’re asking, and you care about the answer, then you probably aren’t very supportive of the RHC/LGK Tina’s is my guess.

So what’s acceptable? What should we “hate?” You decide, but I think we should be cautious with these. I think Tina’s have a niche and they should stay in it. Buying chips for a local community center? Whip something up and get em done super cheap with Tina. Trying to replicate grail sets and going as far as a the mold? Idk, but I don’t like it.

 

[davislane]

So is it frowned upon to do a recreation or tribute BCC set? Can I do The Sabbatical Room using the same fonts and colors?

no. yes but why would you use the same colours?

 

[BarrieJ3]

I mean, you “can” of course do anything.

I don’t quite follow what you’re saying though. It seems you’re assuming the same people who are opposed to Tina chips (at least opposed to THC Tina’s) are the same people supporting LGK Tina’s. I don’t think these groups overlap much and so I don’t quite know what your confusion is.

It does however seem like you’re seeking approval to do something. So here’s my 2¢

There is a value in what Tina provides to the community in a cheap, fast, easy to customize product.

If you want a set you can design but otherwise wouldn’t mind purchasing dice chips, these are great. I’m not saying they’re dice chips, just that they’re basically the minimum viable product for most chippers. And that’s the place they should have.

But I think there’s a line that is kind of murky and very easy to cross on what one does with these. IP is a curious difficult thing to wrestle with. So is misleading others with replicas.

I can’t draw a perfectly neat line in the sand for what’s acceptable and not for these. But asking the question to begin with is not a bad idea. But if you’re asking, and you care about the answer, then you probably aren’t very supportive of the RHC/LGK Tina’s is my guess.

So what’s acceptable? What should we “hate?” You decide, but I think we should be cautious with these. I think Tina’s have a niche and they should stay in it. Buying chips for a local community center? Whip something up and get em done super cheap with Tina. Trying to replicate grail sets and going as far as a the mold? Idk, but I don’t like it.

No I don’t actually care what others think, in fact that doesn’t impact my chipping decisions in any remote way, shape, or form.

I was/am just literally confused by what the party viewpoints are after taking a look at the threads.

no. yes but why would you use the same colours?

no clue, maybe I wouldn’t. I’ve never done a tribute set or copy, so idk what the norm is but seems like spots/colors would make sense to copy sometimes.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

I don’t know if this is unpopular, but we don’t have a question thread. At this point I’m just very confused.

Which Tina chips am I supposed to hate? Which ones do I get mad at and which ones are okay?

I’m not even being a dick, I honestly don’t get it. We can’t or shouldn’t order THC Tina’s for reasons, but at the same time requested a new mold from her, which……looks exactly like an existing mold?

So is it frowned upon to do a recreation or tribute BCC set? Can I do The Sabbatical Room using the same fonts and colors?

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Hate what you hate. Like what you like. I don't personally plan to buy any Tina hat & cane chips for several reasons. One, I don't really like the RHC mold that well anyway. Two, the thing I like best about Paulson chips is that they are clay, and there are a lot of them available to buy at somewhat reasonable prices. Not hard at all to find, unlike BCC MGKs. I couldn't care less about the hat & cane mold itself. It's honestly kinda dorky. I like lots of other molds better. I love my Paulson leaded THC chips, but again, for reasons that can't possibly be duplicated on a Tina ceramic blank.

On the other hand, I love Greek Key mold. I have about 1500 LGKs, which are a forever set to me. But I don't have any MGKs. I haven't handled any of the Tina Greek Key chips yet, but I suspect I'll like them, and I may order some. Plus no one is currently making any Greek Key mold chips that I'm aware of. So while yes, someone probably owns the molds, they're not using them, so these knockoffs aren't hurting their business. Also, the Tina mold is not identical. The chips have a different number of "keys." Lots of other manufacturers have made varying key mold chips, including a china clay chips that's pretty popular with some around here.

Does the fact that Paulson is still making and selling hat & cane mold chips impact my decision making? A little, but it's not close to the main reasons why I don't like the Tina hat & cane chips. I stated those reasons above.

If making some knockoff Greek Key chips will make you happy, then I say go for it.

 

[power13]

This is where we’re intentionally controversial right? We use a lot of choice language to normalize questionable behavior.

Harvesting is a nice way of saying stealing.

Tribute is a nice way of saying counterfeit.

 

[improviseallday]

Justin's Greek key is unique. And even if it weren't, this pattern has been used since about the beginning of recorded history.

Man, this pattern has been used by Greeks since time immemorial. Nobody could claim copyright issues.

It sounds like some would be most comfortable if we propose a unique design. So I did a little quick analysis on the various key molds. Each existing mold as used on previous clay chips has some similarities, and some differences. I'm not a graphic artist, but I feel like we could come up with a greek key design that is different from all three. First, some photos.

View attachment 1047019

LGK has no outer ring, and has 15 keys.
MGK has an outer ring, has 22 keys, and uses a simpler key that doesn't hook back downward at the end.
SGK has a wider blank area before getting to the outer ring, uses the same key design as LGK, then also has an inner ring and more blank space before getting to the inlay area.

...

Here's the key mold proposed by Justin in the OP. If you will notice, this key mold design has 26 keys. It uses the simplest key, and the outer ring of the MGK, but with a different number of keys. And the inner ring of the SGK. It's sort of a hybrid of MGK and SGK, and technically it is unique, and not an exact copy of any of the other three. Seems to me that we ought to be good to go with this design should we choose to move on Greek Key mold. Clearly the other chip manufacturers in the past felt that changing the design of the key and the number of keys was enough to make their design their own, and not infringe on any previous key mold trademark.

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[BarrieJ3]

this pattern has been used since about the beginning of recorded history.

Justin's Greek key is unique

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Harvesting is a nice way of saying stealing.

Why is it stealing? Honest question, don't know the rules. I paid money for something and walked out with it. I'm not stealing, I now have something that has some value; thought it was only illegal if I tried to use it to pay for something outside the casino, not to collect/use?

Don't have a horse in the race, just curious about actual rules.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Why is it stealing? Honest question, don't know the rules. I paid money for something and walked out with it. I'm not stealing, I now have something that has some value; thought it was only illegal if I tried to use it to pay for something outside the casino, not to collect/use?

Don't have a horse in the race, just curious about actual rules.

Chips are the property of the casino. They care less about the "theft" of a chip as most cost less than you exchanged it for, but they are still the property of the casino.

 

[glynn]

The classification of casino chips aside, "paying money for something of value and walking out with it" describes every physical rental service. You can still steal the thing by using it in a manner outside the scope of the terms, which might include limits to its movement.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

The classification of casino chips aside, "paying money for something of value and walking out with it" describes every physical rental service. You can still steal the thing by using it in a manner outside the scope of the terms, which might include limits to its movement.

Sure, that's what I'm asking for, what is that contract? I don't know the laws and rules behind usage, yes you can steal rented items; are chips rented?

 

[Budha]

The classification of casino chips aside, "paying money for something of value and walking out with it" describes every physical rental service. You can still steal the thing by using it in a manner outside the scope of the terms, which might include limits to its movement.

Bad analogy, you’re renting for a fraction of the value of the item being rented. Chips on the other hand, you’re paying full face value.

The rule around being the property of the casino has much more to do with accounting rules than the actual manufacturing “cost” of the Chip to the casino. And also to ensure it isn’t used as Secondary currency locally.

The chip reflects actual monetary value to the casino, each chip in play is “accounted” for. If it’s not returned at the end of the day, it constitutes a liability on the casino’s books. No one wants a balance sheet full of liabilities associated with racks of chips that will never be returned.

It’s not stealing as you could easily argue it’s a forced savings plan. You keep your winnings in chips, until you want to cash them in. They have the rule in place to enforce (if necessary) so they don’t have to carry your savings plan on their books.

 

[improviseallday]

View attachment 1192743

It's a nice meme but here's what I mean in case you missed it:

It sounds like some would be most comfortable if we propose a unique design. So I did a little quick analysis on the various key molds. Each existing mold as used on previous clay chips has some similarities, and some differences. I'm not a graphic artist, but I feel like we could come up with a greek key design that is different from all three. First, some photos.

View attachment 1047019

LGK has no outer ring, and has 15 keys.
MGK has an outer ring, has 22 keys, and uses a simpler key that doesn't hook back downward at the end.
SGK has a wider blank area before getting to the outer ring, uses the same key design as LGK, then also has an inner ring and more blank space before getting to the inlay area.

Personally, SGK is my least favorite.
I like the more complex key used by LGK, and the outer ring of the MGK. But I suspect the more complicated key might be too complex for a Tina mold chip.

Here's the key mold proposed by Justin in the OP. If you will notice, this key mold design has 26 keys. It uses the simplest key, and the outer ring of the MGK, but with a different number of keys. And the inner ring of the SGK. It's sort of a hybrid of MGK and SGK, and technically it is unique, and not an exact copy of any of the other three. Seems to me that we ought to be good to go with this design should we choose to move on Greek Key mold. Clearly the other chip manufacturers in the past felt that changing the design of the key and the number of keys was enough to make their design their own, and not infringe on any previous key mold trademark.

View attachment 1047025

It's both technically unique and as unique as a classic pattern could hope to be.

 

[BarrieJ3]

It's a nice meme but here's what I mean in case you missed it:

It's both technically unique and as unique as a classic pattern could hope to be.

Yeah I get it, it’s a joke my guy.

cheers mate, you’re going to fit in really well here!

 

[improviseallday]

cheers mate, you’re going to fit in really well here!

I do believe so, thanks for the vote of confidence!

 

[upNdown]

Bad analogy, you’re renting for a fraction of the value of the item being rented. Chips on the other hand, you’re paying full face value.

The rule around being the property of the casino has much more to do with accounting rules than the actual manufacturing “cost” of the Chip to the casino. And also to ensure it isn’t used as Secondary currency locally.

The chip reflects actual monetary value to the casino, each chip in play is “accounted” for. If it’s not returned at the end of the day, it constitutes a liability on the casino’s books. No one wants a balance sheet full of liabilities associated with racks of chips that will never be returned.

It’s not stealing as you could easily argue it’s a forced savings plan. You keep your winnings in chips, until you want to cash them in. They have the rule in place to enforce (if necessary) so they don’t have to carry your savings plan on their books.

Not sure how applicable, but it’s interesting to note that generally the definition of stealing is to take WITHOUT CONSENT with the INTENTION OF PERMANENTLY DEPRIVING the owner of that property.
So intent is a big deal. If you keep chips at home intending to use it as a savings plan and intending to someday return them for cash, that cannot be stealing.

If you harvest chips intending to keep them forever for your home game, or intending to flip them for profit on PCF, yeah, that kinda sounds like stealing.

 

[allforcharity]

The chip reflects actual monetary value to the casino, each chip in play is “accounted” for. If it’s not returned at the end of the day, it constitutes a liability on the casino’s books. No one wants a balance sheet full of liabilities associated with racks of chips that will never be returned.

As a corporate currency, I'm sure the company doesn't mind as long as the chips remain uncashed until they are canceled. Free debt cancelation is a plus!

 

[upNdown]

So is it frowned upon to do a recreation or tribute BCC set? Can I do The Sabbatical Room using the same fonts and colors?

I know you’re just doing that thing you do, sniffing out hypocrisy. But for the sake of conversation, I have a few thoughts.

1) if somebody owns that Greek Key mold as a trademark of their poker chip brand (in the same way that we know somebody owns the RHC mold) then yes, I’m frowning.

2) if you’re making a chip with similar colors, spots, and font, but different actual words, yeah, that would fit my traditional definition of tribute, and I’m not frowning.

3) But, I’m not sure about the origin of the capitol room chips. I feel like they were a group buy? I’m cool with tributing a casino’s chips. I’m a little dubious about tributing somebody’s customs without their permission - it just feels like poor taste. I haven’t decided how group buy chips fit in there.

Also eff Tina

 

[Coyote]

Also eff Tina

Tina is my sister's name.
100 years ago I would have travelled to Boston by ship in search of your throat

 

[BigJackJones]

I can't compete with NAGB or Tina as far as controversial opinions, but...

 

[Budha]

As a corporate currency, I'm sure the company doesn't mind as long as the chips remain uncashed until they are canceled. Free debt cancelation is a plus!

it depends on how much and for how long they are carrying that liability on their balance sheet.

In reality, I don’t think chip harvesting is a material item for them, or their balance sheets though - lol.

 

[andrebttx]

I think I know just enough to accidentally be a menace here, however unfortunately I am still just uncultured swine - but I don’t see a big deal in mixing RHC and THC chips when putting together a set. Ultimately I like them all, because hooray, clay Paulson chips, and I can’t imagine any of my players would notice without being told.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I think I know just enough to accidentally be a menace here, however unfortunately I am still just uncultured swine - but I don’t see a big deal in mixing RHC and THC chips when putting together a set. Ultimately I like them all, because hooray, clay Paulson chips, and I can’t imagine any of my players would notice without being told.