Crazy situation in my home game - how do you rule? (2 Viewers)

[Anthony Martino]

We are four-handed and in the money due to a recent arrangement to pay 4th their buyin back. Two new players to my home game (and fairly new to poker) are both in 2nd and 3rd place and have been battling one another relentlessly while the chip leader and my short-stacked ass have sat back and gotten out of the way.

Both players have shown an ability to play extremely poorly, including Villain #1 limping UTG at a full table with 72 offsuit, then calling a raise with it and then flopping a full house. Villain #2 limped A2 offsuit and called a raise with it as well, then flopped bottom pair and fired out into two opponents.

Villain #1 is an Indian guy who is an IT Engineer. At the start of the night he was extremely quiet, shy, reserved and didn't splash around much. However, Villain #2 works as a manager for a wheel rental company (yes, people RENT their f'ing rims here in Florida, gotta make sure your car is on fleek, or something like that I think the kids are saying these days) and has been more boisterous.

Initially Villain #2 was making a lot of bluffs against Villain #1 and showing them, which has led Villain #1 to turn the tables and not back down, and increase his bluffing and showing frequency. Villain #1 has been getting the best of #2 and it's starting to take its toll.

Initially the manager guy was cool, but you can now see he is losing (most of his larger 25K green chips are gone) and it's affecting him to the point of frustration and tilt.

Villain #2 has led the charge this hand in aggression, with Villain #1 just calling his bets consistently preflop, flop and turn. On the river the IT Engineer Villain #1 is first to act. Villain #2, in what I can only refer to as the poster child for Strong is Weak immediately grabs for all of his chips like he wants to shove them in, and gives a menacing stare over at Villain #1.

Villain #1 opts to check and #2 immediately shoves all-in and starts jammering on and on, attempting to puff himself up in what is obviously a display of strength when he is extremely weak.

Villain #1 ponders what to do and states he believes the other guy is bluffing. The board had a three-card straight on the flop and by the river is 45K67.

In my written rules regarding table talk I state:

However, if you are heads-up (i.e. facing only one opponent in the hand) you are welcome to talk to try and gain information. Some casinos do not permit this, but we allow it in our game.

As an aside to this, I LOVE the psychological aspects of poker and thus allow that to come into play, even in a tourney setting, so long as it's a heads-up pot without additional opponents involved, and so long as it doesn't involve players colluding with one another.

Villain #1 asks if it's ok to turn over his hand and show Villain #2, and I say it is ok. He flips over K6 for two pair.

Villain #2, not paying attention and on obvious tilt believes Villain #1 has folded face-up, and in slow-motion turns over his AQ bluff.

I immediately say no no no, Villain #1 hasn't acted yet! and Villain #2 realizes he done goofed! and says it's ok, it was his mistake.

Villain #1 starts asking if they can just chop the pot or something, and I tell him no, he has to call or fold. Now I know in a casino setting:

1. you wouldn't be allowed to turn your hand face-up, usually that makes the hand dead (although it was asked and I ruled opposite that for my game)

2. If this situation were to occur in a casino (should the engineer not have his hand declared dead) then the Engineer would have to call because to fold the winning hand would be viewed as collusion

I think I should've just ruled that it's an auto-call because he can't fold the winner, but I did give him the choice of calling or folding. He agonized over it but ultimately made the call and busted the other guy.

The other guy shook my hand and the chip leaders hand, but I missed it and didn't shake the guys hand that had sent him into tilt mode.

Anyway, again I think I should've ruled it's an auto-call there, I guess make myself the "bad guy" if needs be and not put that onto two new players to my game and two novices to poker. How would you guys handle a situation like this?

 

[trever]

Add another rule to you list "PAY ATTENTION when you are in a hand"

Normal rules don't apply when you aren't playing with normal rules, so you have to decide what ruling would be
1. Fair to everyone
2. Consistent with previous rulings

In this case, I'd probably do the same thing you did.

I'm not happy with you talking the table into paying 4th place, especially when it looks like (at the time, I assume) you are the one most likely to come in 4th. As the host, you need to be more impartial and less self-interested.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I'm not happy with you talking the table into paying 4th place, especially when it looks like (at the time, I assume) you are the one most likely to come in 4th. As the host, you need to be more impartial and less self-interested.

While I was the shortest stack, my games are structured so that you usually still have a shot. I still had around 22 bb's at the time I was the shortest stack, so still had plenty opportunity. And with the 2nd and 3rd guys constantly locking horns it was quite possible (and actually happened to be) that one of them busted first.

It should also be noted that at my previous monthly game with 7 players, we were paying the top two. I was chip leader with 1 million, next guy had 700K and short stack had 400K. Short stack had played a casino tourney day 1 and made day 2 for the next day and it was getting late. He proposed a chop of the money and the guy in 2nd suggested they both take $90 and I take $100 and I agreed to it, even though it wasn't really a deal that favored my position.

 

[abby99]

Now I know in a casino setting:

1. you wouldn't be allowed to turn your hand face-up, usually that makes the hand dead (although it was asked and I ruled opposite that for my game)

That may be the case in the casinos that you play in, but this is from the WSOP rules (2015):

110. Exposing Cards and Proper Folding: A participant exposing his or her cards with action pending will incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand. All participants at the table are entitled to see the exposed card(s). . .

and this from the TDA rules:

63: Exposing Cards and Proper Folding A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand. . .

 

[BGinGA]

How would you guys handle a situation like this?

Kick in the nuts to the TD for allowing a player to expose their cards during a hand. You may have allowed it, but there are good reasons that some rules exist. If you followed them, this would likely never happened.

As played, V2 screwed up -- but it was mostly your fault, not his.

 

[Ronoh]

I'm not happy with you talking the table into paying 4th place, especially when it looks like (at the time, I assume) you are the one most likely to come in 4th. As the host, you need to be more impartial and less self-interested.

Uhhh, what? Discussions to pay something to the bubble is not exactly uncommon, fact that the guy currently in 4th is the host doesn't change anything. And I'm not seeing anything in the OP that suggests he is the one who talked them in to it (not that that would change my opinion anyways).

Per the situation I don't understand why V1 would ever fold due to the other guys mistake, nor should he be given the option to fold. No one had an issue with it anyways so no harm done, just put something on the books where it's is either always okay or never okay to show your cards HU.

 

[detroitdad]

I almost always offer to pay the bubble their money back. Seems to speed up the game, lol.

 

[DrStrange]

Two guys new to your game? V1, the guy with the winning hand is willing to chop to avoid hard feelings? V3 is ok with that? If all that is true, I'd be inclined to allow a chop this one time just for the good of the game.

But if we aren't chopping, I award V1 the pot rather than let him take the hit for the mistake. The error belongs to V2 with an assist from the host. V1 asked first and got explicit permission. He should never end up getting the worst of the deal.

DrStrange

 

[Poker Zombie]

Your rules are broken. In addition to abby's astute references keeping exposed cards alive, you should never - NEVER - allow two players to discuss their live hands, much less let them show with action pending. Player 1 could get a read off of player 2 when exposing his cards (or telling what his hand was). If player 2 was confident in his hand after seeing player's 1 cards, Player 1 folds - doing a direct disservice to any player on the short-stack who could financially benefit directly from Player 1 being knocked out.

In a tournament, all players still in the game are "involved" in each and every hand, especially when on the bubble.

 

[bergs]

What happened is OK in a cash game, but not a tournament.

 

[BGinGA]

In a tournament, all players still in the game are "involved" in each and every hand

Very true, and often the reason for differences between cash game rules and tournament rules.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Your rules are broken. In addition to abby's astute references keeping exposed cards alive, you should never - NEVER - allow two players to discuss their live hands, much less let them show with action pending. Player 1 could get a read off of player 2 when exposing his cards (or telling what his hand was). If player 2 was confident in his hand after seeing player's 1 cards, Player 1 folds - doing a direct disservice to any player on the short-stack who could financially benefit directly from Player 1 being knocked out.

In a tournament, all players still in the game are "involved" in each and every hand, especially when on the bubble.

While I agree to an extent what about things like:

"If I fold will you show?"

"Do you want a call?"

Or a player talking out loud about what their opponent might hold or saying "I've got two pair. Do you really have the Jack for a straight?"

Those, to me are pretty much the same thing as the guy flipping his hand up while contemplating the all in call, as they are designed to illicit a response from their opponent.

 

[T_Chan]

Which one of those questions would be confused with a fold vs flipping cards face up?

 

[Anthony Martino]

Which one of those questions would be confused with a fold vs flipping cards face up?

I was addressing the post by Poker Zombie where he states that the reason for the rule not to permit the turning up of cards was that it impacts other players in the tourney because it can elicit a reaction from your opponent that may determine the course of action you take. Likewise, all the other examples I mentioned impact the game in a similar fashion, does everyone also have an issue with those?

 

[abby99]

From the WSOP 2015 rule book:

109. Table Talk / Disclosure: participants are obligated to protect the other participants in the Tournament at all times. Therefore, whether in a hand or not, participants may not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled,
4. Discuss strategy with an outside source while involved in a hand.

• The one-participant-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.

Special Exceptions:

• A participant is allowed to mention the strength or content of his/her hand if no other participant in the hand will have a decision to make.
• In heads-up events or when down to the last two participants in a Tournament, participants may speak freely regarding the contents of their hands.
• The Floor Person reserves the right use his/her judgment to determine if one participant intentionally helped another participant. Participants who violate this rule are subject to penalty in accordance with Rules 39, 107 and 108.

https://www.wsop.com/2015/2015-WSOP-tournament-Rules.pdf

I couldn't find anything on this in the TDA rules.
http://www.pokertda.com/poker-tda-rules/

 

[Poker Zombie]

While I agree to an extent what about things like:

"If I fold will you show?"

"Do you want a call?"

Or a player talking out loud about what their opponent might hold or saying "I've got two pair. Do you really have the Jack for a straight?"

Those, to me are pretty much the same thing as the guy flipping his hand up while contemplating the all in call, as they are designed to illicit a response from their opponent.

Abby's follow-up covers it. Discussion is fine, as long as you don't reveal (physically or verbally) your actual hand. I don't have a set is vague and getting really deep into the grey (and I would throw out a mild warning if it appeared to be an issue), but "I want a call" or "I want you to fold" is fine. Meanwhile theorizing what you think your opponent may have is fine, because you don't actually know - just don't do it if the action is not on you.

 

[Ronoh]

Abby's follow-up covers it. Discussion is fine, as long as you don't reveal (physically or verbally) your actual hand.

But Abby's follow-up clearly says in this case it would have been fine for the player to verbally reveal his actual hand.

Special Exceptions:

• A participant is allowed to mention the strength or content of his/her hand if no other participant in the hand will have a decision to make.

No other player has a decision to make as the other guy is already all in.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Exactly, if you're allowed to "mention the strength or content" of your hand because your opponent is already all-in and the ONLY decision remaining is on YOU, then how is that any different than flipping your cards face up? It's the same thing

 

[abby99]

Exactly, if you're allowed to "mention the strength or content" of your hand because your opponent is already all-in and the ONLY decision remaining is on YOU, then how is that any different than flipping your cards face up? It's the same thing

IMO there is a huge difference between mentioning the content of one's hand and actually flipping the cards face up. In fact, had player #2 not been allowed to expose his hand, player #1 wouldn't have thought #2 had folded face up. Just my two cents.

 

[Anthony Martino]

IMO there is a huge difference between mentioning the content of one's hand and actually flipping the cards face up. In fact, had player #2 not been allowed to expose his hand, player #1 wouldn't have thought #2 had folded face up. Just my two cents.

But player #2 didn't pay attention and made a mistake. His opponent was vocalizing he believed #2 was bluffing, and his opponent asked if he could show his cards face up and myself and the other player not in the hand confirmed it was ok.

If player #1 said something along the lines of "I think I have to call" or "I don't know if I can fold" and #2 wasn't paying enough attention cause he's on tilt and only processes "call" or "fold" and flips his hand over, that's also on #2 for failing to pay attention and follow what's happening at the table.

 

[BGinGA]

Solution is easy, Anthony.... just don't allow cards to be exposed, as all it does is cause potential problems with no upside.

Admit it, implement it, and move on. Quit arguing.

 

[bergs]

The difference is that if the other player isn't paying attention and I'm just talking, he can't glance over and think "Oh, he made a play". Having cards face up on the table is an entirely different manner. Consider someone with headphones on blasting Pantera at volume 11. They'll see my lips moving and think 'Yeah, that jackass is blathering again", but seeing my cards face up on the table will cause them to make an action that they otherwise wouldn't make.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Headphone wearers slow the action down enough as it is, we don't need to coddle them further

 

[abby99]

In our local games, we follow standard rules (RROP, TDA, WSOP) unless there is a compelling reason to modify a particular rule for what we feel is the good of the game. For example, in my game we don't follow IWTSTH because I don't think it's good for the game (home game, small stakes), and suspicions of cheating (not that we ever have any) should be brought up with the host.

I'm in favor of following established rules because it makes it easier for folks who play in both home and casino games, and for folks who will be playing in a casino for the first time, if all the rules are consistent. Granted, casinos have house rules that may vary from the standard published rules, but new players sometimes fall victim to some of the more esoteric house rules (e.g., enforcement of the betting line) that give fodder to angle shooters. The atmosphere of our games is quite relaxed, and I attribute this in part to our consistent use of standard rules.

As for the difference between stating what one has and exposes one's hole cards, the first is permitted by standard rules and the second is expressly forbidden.

Anthony, you asked how we would rule, and we responded. You don't need to justify your particular rule to those of us who responded, but I'm not convinced that you're trying to understand what the standard rules are and why they make sense. Ultimately, it's your game and your house rules, and if your players are happy, that's what counts.

 

[bergs]

Headphone wearers slow the action down enough as it is, we don't need to coddle them further

I'm not proposing coddling them, just using them as an example.

OK, take away the headphones. I'm yapping to Guinness and I'm not following the action and you start yammering at me. "Yah, watavah dood".

Then consider the situation where I'm yapping to Guinness and I look over and I see your cards face up on the table.

See the difference?

 

[Anthony Martino]

I'm not proposing coddling them, just using them as an example.

OK, take away the headphones. I'm yapping to Guinness and I'm not following the action and you start yammering at me. "Yah, watavah dood".

Then consider the situation where I'm yapping to Guinness and I look over and I see your cards face up on the table.

See the difference?

I would expect you would be confused whether its a call or a fold and would inquire what the action is before you turn your losing hand up

 

[bergs]

I would expect you would be confused whether its a call or a fold and would inquire what the action is before you turn your losing hand up

You have a higher than realistic expectation about the attentiveness of the average poker player, particularly the average home poker player (as evidenced by what happened at your game and about 10,000 other examples that all of us can probably recall).

 

[Mojo1312]

While I agree to an extent what about things like:

"If I fold will you show?"

"Do you want a call?"

Or a player talking out loud about what their opponent might hold or saying "I've got two pair. Do you really have the Jack for a straight?"

Those, to me are pretty much the same thing as the guy flipping his hand up while contemplating the all in call, as they are designed to illicit a response from their opponent.

Where is the guess work in the latter?

I can't tell whether you are trying to make yourself feel better after what happened, or if you are trying to defend your unorthodox home rules regarding tournament poker.

You describe the two players as being reckless noobs, but not you. You saw right through V2, "the poster child for strong is weak." Hats off to you Sir. I love how your "short stacked ass" jumped in to defend the integrity of the game when V1 sought a compromise after realizing V2 had made an error.

This is a brag post, right?

 

[Anthony Martino]

Where is the guess work in the latter?

Sigh, can't even believe I'm bothering. Again I'll say it (since I already said it above when questioned about this). My response you quoted was directed at a post that was NOT calling into question any confusion that might be caused by this specific rule, but was questioning how allowing a player to show their cards would affect other players still in the tourney (i.e. it might, but no more so than someone "revealing the strength or content" of their hand which is permitted under rules Abby posted)

 

[Mojo1312]

Players in a tournament aren't allowed to disclose the contents of their hands if there is more than two left in the game. Not sure what you are asking. (or debating)