Crazy situation in my home game - how do you rule? (5 Viewers)

[Anthony Martino]

Players in a tournament aren't allowed to disclose the contents of their hands if there is more than two left in the game. Not sure what you are asking. (or debating)

Wrong read post #15 by abby again. WSOP rules have an exception if no one else in the hand has a decision to make but you, you can reveal the strength or content of your hand

If a guy is all in and im the only one left to act i am allowed to tell him i have kings but i cant flip them up? Both are an attempt to get a response from your opponent

If you are allowed to attempt it verbally why not visually as well? Because your opponent might make a mistake because they arent paying attention?

 

[BGinGA]

Did you not read post #21? There's really nothing left to discuss or argue about.

 

[Mojo1312]

You mean you don't know the difference between claiming to possess something and showing proof? Mail me a money order for $5,000 and I will give you my Ferrari.

 

[abby99]

Wrong read post #15 by abby again. WSOP rules have an exception if no one else in the hand has a decision to make but you, you can reveal the strength or content of your hand

If a guy is all in and im the only one left to act i am allowed to tell him i have kings but i cant flip them up? Both are an attempt to get a response from your opponent

If you are allowed to attempt it verbally why not visually as well? Because your opponent might make a mistake because they arent paying attention?

Why are verbal statements OK but exposing one's hand isn't? Because it's poker. Poker involves bluffing, misdirection, and deception. Poker players often don't tell the truth about a hand, nor are they required to. Case in point: #2's puffery immediately after shoving.

I remember a rule from years ago that a poker player was allowed to say anything he wanted about his hand as long as it wasn't true, but I don't recall reading that in the TDA or WSOP rule books.

 

[Ronoh]

Did you not read post #21? There's really nothing left to discuss or argue about.

"I'm right, you're wrong, end of story" posts like this (and Post #21) are no less trolling than Mojo's. These ARE home games being discussed and naturally everyone's home games have varying rules. It is your opinion cards should not be shown in situations such as this and that's fine... but while I do agree with your opinion, it is, still, only your opinion.

The rule itself, as written, really makes little sense. Take the following statement:

Why are verbal statements OK but exposing one's hand isn't? Because it's poker. Poker involves bluffing, misdirection, and deception. Poker players often don't tell the truth about a hand, nor are they required to.

Agreed. But take the following scenarios and tell me why, exactly, only one of them is legal per the rule (only two players left in each example)...

LEGAL
Player 1 shoves
Player 2 says "I have kings"

ILLEGAL
Player 1 shoves and says "I have kings"

Per abby's statement above P2 is allowed to talk about his cards, whether he is stating his true cards or not, because poker involves deception. But that doesn't explain why it's illegal for P1 to shove and say what he holds (whether it is true or not). We all understand what the rule says (except Mojo )... I fail to understand WHY it says what it does. Per the written rule the following is also illegal:

Player 1 shoves
Player 2 says "I have kings"
Player 1 says "I have aces"

Player 1 can not respond stating cards that he may or may not hold because P2 still has pending action in front of him... are we seeing the silliness of the written rule yet?

 

[BGinGA]

Not to be argumentative, but I think your examples above are only illegal if the players are telling the truth.

 

[Mojo1312]

I would like to know the difference between third place and fourth place money. BTW, my Ferrari is red.

 

[Marius L]

I dont mind letting guys show their cards in a situation like this, and i agree that the problem here is villain2 not paying attention and he is to blame. (Of course this is unfortunate for him)

All you guys differentiating cash games and tourneys, what would you rule if the exact same situation happened in a cash game? I guess you would blame v2 for not paying attention. Considering the players involved are new to poker they surely wouldnt have done anything different if it was a cash game. I would not beat yourself up over this anthony. As sad as it is the fault is with the guy not paying attention. Who doesnt pay attention after going allin on the end a tourney anyways...

Also I dont see the point in following strict WSOP rules in home games. Just do whatever you/your group enjoys. Its nice to have a list of general rules to follow, but do them however you like.

Edit: I would also consider letting them chop the pot up, at least if the player with two pair suggested it, and all four players left agree to it. Just try to keep the players happy.

 

[stocky]

Home game. Do what you want just keep it consistent.

At a friends game if HU and player 1 is all in player 2 can show to "try" to get a read. If player 1 bets but is not all in its ruled dead. Not my preference, but his house his rules.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Why are verbal statements OK but exposing one's hand isn't? Because it's poker. Poker involves bluffing, misdirection, and deception. Poker players often don't tell the truth about a hand, nor are they required to. Case in point: #2's puffery immediately after shoving.

I remember a rule from years ago that a poker player was allowed to say anything he wanted about his hand as long as it wasn't true, but I don't recall reading that in the TDA or WSOP rule books.

But the rule you quoted states you CAN reveal the "strength or contents" of your hand. As such, you ARE allowed to tell the truth. Flipping your cards face up is no different than saying you have Kings when you do, because the other guy is all-in and your action won't change his actions, you are ONLY impacting your own actions/decisions in the hand, which is perfectly legal.

As far as the "you can reveal anything BUT the truth of your hand", I recall hearing that too, and it's just silly. If that rule is in effect and known, then you are still revealing TRUE information when you say "I have Queens" because the rule in effect prevents you from telling the truth your statement must be a lie.

. I would not beat yourself up over this anthony. As sad as it is the fault is with the guy not paying attention. Who doesnt pay attention after going allin on the end a tourney anyways...

Also I dont see the point in following strict WSOP rules in home games. Just do whatever you/your group enjoys. Its nice to have a list of general rules to follow, but do them however you like.

I'm not beating myself up over it. My ONLY reason for the post is because I feel I shouldn't have given the guy who flipped up two pair an option to fold, I shouldn't have put that on him. I should've just ruled that as soon as the other guy flipped up his bluff the K6 wins the pot.

I try to have some rules in place that are similar to a casino (no string bets, one chip rule, no splashing the pot, no board talk, etc)

 

[Mojo1312]

All you guys differentiating cash games and tourneys, what would you rule if the exact same situation happened in a cash game?

Edit: I would also consider letting them chop the pot up, at least if the player with two pair suggested it, and all four players left agree to it. Just try to keep the players happy.

In a cash game, every hand is a game in itself.

Based upon the information in the O.P., I think the best solution would have been to let the players work it out.

 

[bergs]

In a cash game, every hand is a game in itself.

Based upon the information in the O.P., I think the best solution would have been to let the players work it out.

Why have rules then? You won't have players very long when they don't know what to expect and someone ends up getting disappointed in a big spot and gets very upset about it.

If that's the case (no rules) just play slapjack for hundos.

The nice thing about RROP is that it's a generally accepted ruleset that you can fall back into - particularly for common games like NLHE where it anticipates most of the things that could go awry in your game.

 

[Marius L]

My ONLY reason for the post is because I feel I shouldn't have given the guy who flipped up two pair an option to fold, I shouldn't have put that on him.

I agree on this point. Not so nice to make him the 'bad guy', as he is obviously never folding at this point.

In a cash game, every hand is a game in itself.

Why does this make a difference when two players are heads up in a pot and the only decission left is for a player to call or fold to an all-in? Will him showing his cards have any further implications for the rest of the tournament?

 

[bergs]

Why does this make a difference when two players are heads up in a pot and the only decission left is for a player to call or fold to an all-in? Will him showing his cards have any further implications for the rest of the tournament?

You guys don't know Mojo yet. Have fun with the Seeker of the Eternal Non-Sequitur.

 

[Blaster]

agree on this point. Not so nice to make him the 'bad guy', as he is obviously never folding at this poi


Why does this make a difference when two players are heads up in a pot and the only decission left is for a player to call or fold to an all-in? Will him showing his cards have any further implications for the rest of the tournament?

Allowing players to show cards in live hands during a multi player tournament, even when the hand goes to heads up, is Not one of the "friendly home game" things I would ever allow as a change from generally accepted tournament rules.
It just opens up the possibilities for collusion and chip dumping, allows the possibility of gaining a tell that other players can't do in their hands, ect ...
How about the guy who wants to " pre-deal the whole board face down", before the flop so everyone can stare at the backs of the flop, turn and river... I wouldn't allow that eitheter in A home game.

 

[links_slayer]

Why does this make a difference when two players are heads up in a pot and the only decission left is for a player to call or fold to an all-in?

Because there are still two other players (besides the two players still in the hand) that have an interest in the prize money. In a cash game, you forfeit your right to the pot when you fold.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Because there are still two other players (besides the two players still in the hand) that have an interest in the prize money. In a cash game, you forfeit your right to the pot when you fold.

But player #1 flipping his hand up won't influence player #2 because player #2 is already all-in. The only player left to make a decision is the player turning his hand face-up. That player would be allowed to talk to his opponent about his hand, about his opponents hand, why should flipping his hand up be any different? All of those are attempts to get a read, but they only influence that players own decisions, they don't impact any other players decisions at the table. As long as he's only influencing his own decision I don't see an issue with it

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

V2 should have been paying more attention, I suppose, but maybe he thought he heard V1 mumble something and then flip his cards over. If that's the case I would have thought it's a call too. I really don't care for your rule, and think you should give serious consideration to changing it before your next tourney. There are just too many ways it can cause problems.

 

[Blaster]

Ok, hypothetical.
Say there is a Player # 4 , not in this hand.
Player 4 feels he will win or make more money in this Tournament if Player 1 busts or is crippled.
Player 1 is going to call, but then decided to flip his hand face up while it is still live, this then enables him to get a read from #2's face, and instead he folds, avoiding calling and being crippled or eliminated.
This absolutely affects Player 4 .

 

[Anthony Martino]

Ok, hypothetical.
Say there is a Player # 4 , not in this hand.
Player 4 feels he will win or make more money in this Tournament if Player 1 busts or is crippled.
Player 1 is going to call, but then decided to flip his hand face up while it is still live, this then enables him to get a read from #2's face, and instead he folds, avoiding calling and being crippled or eliminated.
This absolutely affects Player 4 .

I have to disagree, here's why:

In a tournament you aren't allowed to influence ANOTHER players decisions. You can influence your decisions all you want.

You say Player 1 shouldn't be able to flip his cards face up because #2 may then react to this, allowing #1 to make a decision.

But Player 1 could reach for his chips and start counting them and get a reaction from #2. Player 1 could say "I think you're bluffing and I THINK I have to call here..." and get a reaction from #2.

#2 was already giving off painfully obvious tells with his strong is weak line. If #1 had read Mike Caro's poker tells book and noticed this I guess that "absolutely affects Player 4"?

You guys are grasping at straws now.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I don't think we're the ones grasping at straws. You asked how we would rule. Nearly unanimous consensus says we would not allow a player to show with action, even his own, pending. You want to know the difference between showing and discussing, but the majority of us understand there to be a huge difference. TDA rule #62 seems quite clear that you may not disclose your hand:

http://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

62: No Disclosure

Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore players, whether in the hand or not, must not:

1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn’t been tabled.

This is a little different from WSOP rules, that allow a player to discuss their hand while breaking down their thought process. Discussing the hand is good for TV, but it violates TDA rule #62.

Player 1 was in the hand. He disclosed the contents of a live hand (his own). That's a violation of the rules.

We would not allow a player to show. That's how I would rule.

 

[Blaster]

I have to disagree, here's why:


....You say Player 1 shouldn't be able to flip his cards face up because #2 may then react to this, allowing #1 to make a decision.

But Player 1 could reach for his chips and start counting them and get a reaction from #2. Player 1 could say "I think you're bluffing and I THINK I have to call here..." and get a reaction from 2..."

The difference is, counting g out chips , or saying " I think you are buuffing" are tools ANY player, including player 4 in the hypothetical, could use in any hand ...
Flipping over live cards gives Player 1 an Additional advantage other tournament players Can't use in every hand ...
As important, it opens up possible cheating / chip dumping / collusion between 2 players. ( look down and I'll call, look at the board and I'll fold)..
If you like this deviation from standard rules so much, at least seriously consider limiting it to when only 2 players are left in the tournament.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Wrong, you guys took it upon yourselves to go off on a complete tangent not related to the actual question I posed. My question was how you would handle the situation as it unfolded.
I gave the guy permission to show his hand, he shows it, the other guy then turns up his bluff because he didn't pay attention. So the options in this scenario that I was looking for were:

1. Declare the hand over with player #1 winning
2. Chop the pot up evenly between both players
3. Pull player #2's all-in bet back and award the remainder of the pot to Player #1
4. Give player #1 the option of calling or folding
5. Something else that actually meshes with what has happened UP TO THAT POINT IN THE HAND.

I don't really care that you guys wouldn't permit showing in your games, or that you choose to ignore that I'm not alone in allowing this sort of thing in a home game. It's too late to "we would not allow a player to show", that train has passed as the hand has unfolded. And regardless, the TDA rules impose a penalty after the hand concludes, so the TDA can't "not allow a player to show" either, and they would need to address the hand as it played out as well, they couldn't magically turn back the clock and stop the showing of hands as they occurred.

 

[Anthony Martino]

The difference is, counting g out chips , or saying " I think you are buuffing" are tools ANY player, including player 4 in the hypothetical, could use in any hand ...
Flipping over live cards gives Player 1 an Additional advantage other tournament players Can't use in every hand ...

It's allowed in my home game, ANY player could use it in a situation where they are heads-up with no other players in the pot and the other guy is already all-in. So it doesn't give player 1 an "additional advantage" over other players in MY game.

As important, it opens up possible cheating / chip dumping / collusion between 2 players. ( look down and I'll call, look at the board and I'll fold)..

What the fuck are you talking about? This is a small stakes single table home game and if players wanted to chip dump this approach would be about the dumbest way to do it, there's like zero advantage for them because if they are colluding it benefits them to both remain in the game to trap the other two players between them rather than eliminate one of their partners.

 

[Blaster]

It's allowed in my home game, ANY player could use it in a situation where they are heads-up with no other players in the pot and the other guy is already all-in. So it doesn't give player 1 an "additional advantage" over other players in MY game.

This statement apparently shows why you don't understand why the TDA / WSOP/WPT make this illegal in their games.

What the fuck are you talking about? This is a small stakes single table home game and if players wanted to chip dump this approach would be about the dumbest way to do it, there's like zero advantage for them because if they are colluding it benefits them to both remain in the game to trap the other two players between them rather than eliminate one of their partners.

You said in your Post # 29, ","... but was questioning how allowing a player to show their cards would affect other players still in the tourney .."
People are simply attempting to answer this, " in general", no one was at "your game", and everything from WSOP/TDA rules to mike Caro's book and hypotheticals have been used for this discussion by various posters, since you seem keep Insisting 7 ways from Sunday that everyone is wrong, the rule is almost meaningless ect ,
Don't get angry because virtually no one agrees with your odd home game rule that violates all published rules, & some are trying to point out valid general reasons why the rule banning this behavior does actually make sense, and they wouldn't allow it in their games..
BTW, The 2 players could be "theoretically" colluding in a situation like this to allow both of them to remain in the game as well, or to dump chips to one or the other, or simply to soft play ( "Bob, if we are ever get to heads up on the river, show while live so we could signal each other & not bust each other out ) ... No, not specificall in your game of course, just "in general.

 

[Anthony Martino]

BTW, The 2 players could be "theoretically" colluding in a situation like this to allow both of them to remain in the game as well,

How? Player #2 is already all-in AND covered by #1. If they are colluding, #1 doesn't call (because he either busts his partner OR he becomes the super short stack and puts himself at risk of busting next) so he wouldn't be trying to show his cards, unless you're implying it would be some crazy act they'd do for a $40 home game.

Here's an interesting discussion with multiple tournament directors having varied viewpoints on the situation

http://www.thehendonmob.com/tournament_director/exposing_your_hand.html

 

[Poker Zombie]

I don't really care that you guys wouldn't permit showing in your games, or that you choose to ignore that I'm not alone in allowing this sort of thing in a home game. It's too late to "we would not allow a player to show", that train has passed as the hand has unfolded. And regardless, the TDA rules impose a penalty after the hand concludes, so the TDA can't "not allow a player to show" either, and they would need to address the hand as it played out as well, they couldn't magically turn back the clock and stop the showing of hands as they occurred.

I'm not ignoring that few others play in a way that creates a possible problem. I'm trying to help you (and others) understand why it's wrong. Knowing it's wrong allows you to fix the broken rule, and it won't happen again - which is (I assume) why you would ask "how would you rule".

If it were one of my games, and someone showed out of order, I would have quickly told them to turn the cards back over. The other player would have known something was wrong, and wouldn't have shown his bluff. Once again, the situation as it unfolded could have been prevented. Still, you allowed the cards to remain face up. At this point, you are asking how would you rule in a situation that has gone this far south. I don't think any of us can really give an answer, because all of our suggestions will be based on RRoP or the TDA. Since you "don't really care that you guys wouldn't permit showing in your games" because it's a TDA rule, then why would you ask "how do you rule?"

 

[Anthony Martino]

The WSOP rules state:

A participant is allowed to mention the strength or content of his/her hand if no other participant in the hand will have a decision to make.

Now, in my example no other participant in the hand would have a decision to make outside of the player who exposed his cards first. What seems silly to me is that you could still have the same situation as I had with the rule above. The rule above doesn't permit "showing", only "mentioning" but you could easily have Player #1 say "I've got Kings" and Player #2 interprets that as a call and flips up his bluff.

 

[Poker Zombie]

How? Player #2 is already all-in AND covered by #1. If they are colluding, #1 doesn't call (because he either busts his partner OR he becomes the super short stack and puts himself at risk of busting next) so he wouldn't be trying to show his cards, unless you're implying it would be some crazy act they'd do for a $40 home game.

Here's an interesting discussion with multiple tournament directors having varied viewpoints on the situation

http://www.thehendonmob.com/tournament_director/exposing_your_hand.html

All agree that the player showing should be penalized. Kill the hand (3 TDs) or not (2 TDs) is their only discrepancy. All 5 agree with myself, BG, Abby, et al.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Again...

TDA rule #62 seems quite clear that you may not disclose your hand:

http://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

62: No Disclosure

Players must protect other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore players, whether in the hand or not, must not:

1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn’t been tabled.