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Crazy situation in my home game - how do you rule? (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Anthony Martino
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Chippy McChiperson
Straight Flush
Well the player shouldn't be penalized, because he asked permission from the tournament director ahead of time. It's just a bad rule that should be revisited before the next tourney.
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Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
The TDA states:
So even they aren't immune to completely preventing this action to get a reaction. I mean, think about being in a major tournament with a MAJOR all-in decision DEEP in the event when prize jumps are substantial.
You don't think a player would risk the penalty if they felt it gave them the edge in making a crucial decision for a huge pot? Neither the TDA or the WSOP kills the hand according to their ruleset.
Chippy McChiperson
Straight Flush
I never said that the hand should be killed. I was responding to zombie saying the guy should be penalized but apparently I was too slow.
I don't.
TDA 66: Warnings, Penalties, & Disqualification
Penalty options include: verbal warnings, one or more “missed hands”, one or more “missed rounds”, and disqualification.
I would be fairly shocked if a player in a TDA ruled Tourn , knowingly violated the rule and risked a penalty, to gain an edge to win any pot.
Violations are not tolerated, and such a brazen "in your face" disregard of the tournament rules no doubt could result in a severe penalty, including disqualification.
Aside from that, in a home game, I would be more inclined to , as a "penalty" rule a hand dead whenever possible or feasable, instead of having home game players sit out rounds or get disqualified, ect ...as in a TDA/Casino tourn ...
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Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Lol, you think they're disqualifying a guy at the final table of a major tournament for turning his hand face-up? Jawohl Mein Herr!!!!
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
You asked for advice, and then insulted those trying to help with a Nazi reference.
114 days. I should have set an over/under.
114 days. I should have set an over/under.
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It's happened once so far, learn from it and act again the same going forward. If you're going to allow players to expose cards and then keep on letting them, just the rule the same way and tell your players to pay more attention. Otherwise, tell players to stop exposing cards. Your game, your rules.
How do you know he is never folding?? There is a four card straight on the board, either of the last two could have given him a straight. Why didn't he just snap call, instead of asking if he could turn his cards over? I have seen MANY players fold a winning hand in similar situations.
As to your question, yes. The player who shows his card could get a read that he is behind or ahead. That piece of information alone would change the entire game.
Anthony had a financial interest in the outcome of the hand, which is why I agree with the Doctor's solution. None of this would not have transpired if the game was being played by RROP.
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Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Because his opponent just showed a complete bluff with no pair and player #1 has two pair, so conceivably he shouldn't fold, because folding a winner would be viewed as collusion in a casino setting, no?
lol at a financial interest. It was a $20 difference to move up one spot, I guess I can finally get that addition to the cardboard box I'm living in! My interest was doing what was right for the game, and what I should have done is declare player #1 the winner of the hand and not put that decision on the new player which wasn't fair of me.
I'm satisfied with what I should've done and would do in the future, which is to have cards speak in a situation like that (of course, if Player #2 flipped over the winning hand and player #1 hadn't acted yet, he would of course be permitted to fold)
Permitted to fold? If there is any uncertainty, I think it should be whether he should be forced to fold or allowed to call.
Anthony, the question is if V2 had not turned over his cards showing his bluff, would V1 have called? What would his decision have been if he had been told that he could not expose his cards? Your rule allows other players in the tournament to react to V1's live cards. He may pick up on someone's look of disbelief, shock, etc. that may prompt him to call instead of finding the fold.
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Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
Lol. First off, no one is forcing Player 2 to even LOOK at Player 1's cards.
Secondly, Player 1 could verbalize his hand analysis, or even verbalize his hand strength or the exact content of his hand (allowed under WSOP and TDA rules) and then pick up on Player 2's look of disbelief, shock, etc.
Are you really arguing against attempting to get a read off an opponent now? Alright, I'm done, we're going in circles and won't agree. I'm satisfied with how I will proceed in the future and won't be responding to anymore of this insanity.
Because the guy who you quoted, the one you were directly responding to, was referring to the hand as it played out. He said the guy would not fold after knowing, without question, that he had the best hand.
There are quite a few people who are really very good at taking things out of context in an attempt to prove some kind of point. You aren't one of them.
Marius L
4 of a Kind
Seems I am not as strict with the rules as some of you, but that's fine. I am aware of the WSOP rules with no showing of cards, but in friendly home-games I dont really care about this too much. We are just having fun, right? We obv also have rules to play by, like one-chip call, acting in turn and whatnot, but if some newbie legit puts in one chip (wanting to raise but not saying) we would just ask him what he means to do before the next person acts. (and ofc tell him about the rule, and starting to be more strict if he keeps on making the same mistake. It almost never happens though.) I think angle shooting in spots like this, making the fish call, and then limping in behind with rags to outflop his overpair and felt him is a lot more shady than allowing him to do his intented raise.
In the games I play we are used to showing our hands on the end in cash-games (seems most of you also allow this?), and I dont really see a problem with it in tournaments either. It doesnt happen very often, but it is not a big deal if someone wants to "see what the guys is thinking about" or "join in on the decission". I honestly doubt showing the cards will impact player3 and player4 in this spot. Of course other people are not allowed to discuss the hand while its live. This is a clear no-no.
Just to be clear I also dont have a problem with hosts not allowing to show live cards, Also for cash-games. I do think it makes the game better to show some cards sometimes, but its not a big deal either way. To me the big issue here is the other player not paying attention, rather than the rule itself. (The same thing could easily happen in a cash-game, if the player is not paying attention.)
As for collusion it has not been a problem in the home-games I have been playing, but if you get a lot of different new players every game, I guess it would be more important to take some precautions. I dont think chip-dumping will ever be an issue in a low stakes game wth friends though, but I guess you can never be too careful.....
In the games I play we are used to showing our hands on the end in cash-games (seems most of you also allow this?), and I dont really see a problem with it in tournaments either. It doesnt happen very often, but it is not a big deal if someone wants to "see what the guys is thinking about" or "join in on the decission". I honestly doubt showing the cards will impact player3 and player4 in this spot. Of course other people are not allowed to discuss the hand while its live. This is a clear no-no.
Just to be clear I also dont have a problem with hosts not allowing to show live cards, Also for cash-games. I do think it makes the game better to show some cards sometimes, but its not a big deal either way. To me the big issue here is the other player not paying attention, rather than the rule itself. (The same thing could easily happen in a cash-game, if the player is not paying attention.)
As for collusion it has not been a problem in the home-games I have been playing, but if you get a lot of different new players every game, I guess it would be more important to take some precautions. I dont think chip-dumping will ever be an issue in a low stakes game wth friends though, but I guess you can never be too careful.....
Albuquerque. See, I can do it too. Snorkel.
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
Nothing wrong with table talk once heads-up. It's an important and valuable strategic part of the game. I encourage it.
As far as showing your cards is concerned, this rule is almost never enforced. Players only get mad about this because they think they are supposed to get mad. There is no reason a player can't or shouldn't be allowed to show one or both of his hole cards to his opponent once they are heads up, unless they are colluding and trying to give air to each other in a tournament setting (i.e., if they are friends and don't want to bust each other at a FT).
I show my cards all the time in cash games. I've had players who weren't involved in the hand get mad at me for it, but I've never been penalized or had my hand called dead (and for good reason - no card room wants to deal with the gambling commission, and they'd sure as shit be hearing from them if a floorman every tried to call my hand dead for exposing my cards). I've had one or two ignorant floormen at low stakes card rooms to try warn me about it, but never in real games. This stuff is pretty common at higher stakes. I can't tell you how many times a player says, "I'll show you one card..." or better yet, "I'll show you one if you show me one..."
As far as showing your cards is concerned, this rule is almost never enforced. Players only get mad about this because they think they are supposed to get mad. There is no reason a player can't or shouldn't be allowed to show one or both of his hole cards to his opponent once they are heads up, unless they are colluding and trying to give air to each other in a tournament setting (i.e., if they are friends and don't want to bust each other at a FT).
I show my cards all the time in cash games. I've had players who weren't involved in the hand get mad at me for it, but I've never been penalized or had my hand called dead (and for good reason - no card room wants to deal with the gambling commission, and they'd sure as shit be hearing from them if a floorman every tried to call my hand dead for exposing my cards). I've had one or two ignorant floormen at low stakes card rooms to try warn me about it, but never in real games. This stuff is pretty common at higher stakes. I can't tell you how many times a player says, "I'll show you one card..." or better yet, "I'll show you one if you show me one..."
You don't see players turning their cards face up in a tournament during the decision making process, because unlike a cash game where every hand is essentially a new game and the chips are worth their face value, the blinds progress and the game continues until one player has all of the chips. Showing ones cards to gain information could alter the outcome for other players. The player might get a read off of his opponent as to whether he should fold or call. He may even show his cards to see the reaction of other players when trying to make his/her decision.
You have to differentiate between the two games. And no, showing is not the same as telling a player what you have, as Abby pointed out in post #34.
Whatever you do in Florida, please don't go to the beach and dump a bucket of water over a beach ball. I am afraid you might come back here and argue that the world is flat.
You have to differentiate between the two games. And no, showing is not the same as telling a player what you have, as Abby pointed out in post #34.
Whatever you do in Florida, please don't go to the beach and dump a bucket of water over a beach ball. I am afraid you might come back here and argue that the world is flat.
bergs
Royal Flush
Holy shit - Mojo actually said something relevant and funny. I'm coming around on you.
(Slowly)
(Very Slowly)
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
I turned KK face up on the river on a K554J board in an O8 WSOP Circuit Event in San Diego a few years back. I then folded it face up for just one more bet on the river after I 3bet the guy heads up. This was a limit event too.
The table went nuts, so did the dealer. I had to clarify that I knew what I had, and that my intention was to fold. I explained that I was certain I was beat and that he had quads and that I didn't want to lose even one more bet.
Good times, good times
The table went nuts, so did the dealer. I had to clarify that I knew what I had, and that my intention was to fold. I explained that I was certain I was beat and that he had quads and that I didn't want to lose even one more bet.
Good times, good times
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
Haha, yes, but perhaps you missed the first half of his post which... well... was neither
RainmanTrail
Straight Flush
I was pondering this situation a bit more, and I'm curious what those of you that subscribe to the "don't ever expose your hand" rule object to about a player exposing his/her cards heads up. There's one obvious objection to me, which is if you're at the final table (or at least deep in the money of a large tournament) and two players are soft playing each other because they're friends and don't want to bust each other (I mentioned this above, and this one is pretty much always enforced). Obviously, this isn't fair to the other players, but aside from this, I'm wondering what your objections are to a player exposing his/her cards.
Particularly, I'm curious about your objections in a cash game setting once the hand is heads up. Note that I'm not talking about multi-way pots here. I think it goes without saying that you should never intentionally expose your hand in a multi-way pot. I'm primarily a cash game player, and this topic comes up quite a bit when I play since I expose my cards with a fair amount of regularity.
Particularly, I'm curious about your objections in a cash game setting once the hand is heads up. Note that I'm not talking about multi-way pots here. I think it goes without saying that you should never intentionally expose your hand in a multi-way pot. I'm primarily a cash game player, and this topic comes up quite a bit when I play since I expose my cards with a fair amount of regularity.
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Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
The gist I'm getting is they aren't against it in cash games, but they are in tournaments because exposing your cards could impact other players still in the tournament. Here's why I disagree in the situation from my OP
1. There are two opponents involved in this hand. Player #2 is already all-in. Player #1 is the one who asks first, and then exposes his hand. In poker I believe it's considered against the rules to influence the actions of another player. However, as Player #2 is already all-in, he has no further "actions" he can take, so Player #1 exposing his hand doesn't influence the "actions" available to Player #2 because Player #2 has no "actions" remaining to him
2. They argue that Player #1 exposing his cards could get a reaction from either Player #2 or the other players at the table, and that getting a reaction from your opponent is somehow unethical, unfair, etc. to the other players in the game. Again, this is wrong, because it's already been shown that published tournament rules in a situation like this permit you to mention the "strength or content" of your hand.
Are they trying to argue that a player saying "I have Kings" will not produce a possible reaction from either their opponent in the hand or others at the table? If their argument is that one shouldn't be allowed to obtain a reaction from their opponent (and that seems to be the argument I'm seeing pushed most heavily against me) then they are hypocrites because there are plenty of other actions permitted within the ruleset of most poker tournaments that "could" result in a reaction from their opponent.
These include reaching for your chips, taking out the amount of chips necessary to call and counting them out, stacking them, looking at your opponent intently, discussing what you believe your opponent has, discussing the strength of your own hand, saying you think you have to call, asking your opponent if you fold will they show, etc. All of those things are done everyday in poker tournaments, and all of these things could result in a reaction from their opponent (and I could argue that asking "if I fold will you show" is more likely to result in a verbal response from your opponent, giving you a much better tell, than actually flipping up your hand which isn't likely to get a verbal response from your opponent at all). Obtaining a reaction from your opponent is not illegal under poker rules, influencing their actions is. It seems everyone is trying to outlaw getting a reaction from opponents, and that's just idiotic to me.
Anyway, don't waste any further time with Mojo, no sense in feeding the troll.
Given the most commonly-used rules in each game type, I think that a player who sees exposed cards tabled is going to assume that it's either a call (cash game) or a fold (tournament). In general, allowing players to expose their cards creates more potential problems than any potential gain by the practice.
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Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
By that logic should we also prevent a player from saying something like "I think I have to call" or "do you want me to fold?" because the other player may not be paying attention and may only register the words "call" or "fold" and act on hearing that?
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
For the 3rd time...
http://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/
That's my objection. The rule states a player must not disclose the contents of a live hand. If they took the time to write the rule, there must be a reason. It really doesn't matter if you don't like the rule, or don't understand the rule - it's the rule. If you'd like, you can make a rule for your home game that makes flushes the highest possible hand, but that's not how most of us would rule it in our games.
How is this still a discussion, and how the F*ck did it suddenly become about a cash game?
There's the rule. You willfully ignore it at your game. I know those that wilfully ignore the rule prohibiting rabbit-hunting. Whatever - it's their game, we're all different. Just accept that if you ignore a commonly accepted rule, that you may have a "crazy" situation arise. This whole thread is moot if you followed the rule.
http://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/
That's my objection. The rule states a player must not disclose the contents of a live hand. If they took the time to write the rule, there must be a reason. It really doesn't matter if you don't like the rule, or don't understand the rule - it's the rule. If you'd like, you can make a rule for your home game that makes flushes the highest possible hand, but that's not how most of us would rule it in our games.
How is this still a discussion, and how the F*ck did it suddenly become about a cash game?
There's the rule. You willfully ignore it at your game. I know those that wilfully ignore the rule prohibiting rabbit-hunting. Whatever - it's their game, we're all different. Just accept that if you ignore a commonly accepted rule, that you may have a "crazy" situation arise. This whole thread is moot if you followed the rule.
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