Do these words make a call? (1 Viewer)

[Lil Tuna]

I keep it simple at my table, I am the only opinion that matters. If I said it was a call, it was a call. If I say it wasn’t, it wasn’t.

All my players know this, and trust my ruling. I’ve had to lock in a few verbal actions and bind them, one was an all in that lost. He was poopy about it, but it was clear. It all depends on what was said and how it’s said.

LPT House Rules:
View attachment 1006571

So good to see another member use the word “poopy” for a change. Kinda warms my heart.

 

[raynmanas]

I keep it simple at my table, I am the only opinion that matters. If I said it was a call, it was a call. If I say it wasn’t, it wasn’t.

even when you are in the hand and the one in question?

 

[louBdub]

Semantics

Semantics everywhere

Side note: why is there not a Judge Dredd CPC set???

 

[krafticus]

At the end of the day, a player should always ask for confirmation of a verbal action before acting. We can twist words around many ways to get a reaction in which another player interprets differently. Same thing with stack sizes, bet sizing, etc. if you don’t confirm the action, you only have yourself to blame.

 

[HaRDHouSeiNC]

I don't think it uncommon for someone who are making a decision and in a blender to say something like

I got a good hand, I might have to call
I got a bluff catcher, I felt like I will call

But that didn't mean he is calling for sure, it not as straight forward as I Call

Did they have J4..... then its a winner

 

[raynmanas]

At the end of the day, a player should always ask for confirmation of a verbal action before acting. We can twist words around many ways to get a reaction in which another player interprets differently. Same thing with stack sizes, bet sizing, etc. if you don’t confirm the action, you only have yourself to blame.

i agree with this. @upNdown should have certainly been able to talk his way out of calling if no cards were tabled yet, even if it came off as a call initially.

 

[LeLe]

Did they have J4..... then its a winner

well, someone did tank for a long time and call me down with pocket 5 today when the board is 77699 & I am bluffing with A high

She got a soul read just not as good in poker rank reading

 

[krafticus]

i agree with this. @upNdown should have certainly been able to talk his way out of calling if no cards were tabled yet, even if it came off as a call initially.

But the player immediately tabled his hand due to the words spoken. That’s the issue.

And yes, it’s all semantics.

 

[ekricket]

Hmm sounds like it wouldn’t not be a call….

 

[HaRDHouSeiNC]

well, someone did tank for a long time and call me down with pocket 5 today when the board is 77699 & I am bluffing with A high

She got a soul read just not as good in poker rank reading

OH look at that, three pair
the Canadian Full House

 

[louBdub]

even when you are in the hand and the one in question?

Yup yup, I will always rule fair and just, even against myself if need be. I will gladly donate to a player at my table unless it was blatant shenanigans or a “I changed my mind” type thing (like the all in mentioned above.)

My table knows me, as we’re all friends and they 100% trust me to do so.

 

[krafticus]

So, you go to a restaurant, and tell the server “I think I’ll have the burger”. Did you just order a burger, or is that just talking out loud??

I think I’m going to have to get the burger….

Then they don’t bring your food, as your statement was not binding.

Now I match the OP

 

[ekricket]

I think I’m going to have to get the burger….

Then they don’t bring your food, as your statement was not binding.

Now I match the OP

Lol I’m a lot more definitive with my statements if food is involved

 

[HaRDHouSeiNC]

Lol I’m a lot more definitive with my statements if food is involved

 

[raynmanas]

But the player immediately tabled his hand due to the words spoken. That’s the issue.

but he didn't:

And as I said that he grabbed his cards and looked at them like he was about to table the nuts.

 

[Marius L]

well, someone did tank for a long time and call me down with pocket 5 today when the board is 77699 & I am bluffing with A high

She got a soul read just not as good in poker rank reading

No wonder you win every session

 

[LeLe]

No wonder you win every session

I also been lucky lately without being on the wrong side of the cooler and winning a lot of the flip

Main thing is Online poker is illegal in Singapore so the skill level here are lower compare to the rest of the world since everyone played much much lesser hands

 

[WedgeRock]

and said “well I think I’m going to have to call . . .”

Not a call. An out loud discussion about future action. If you said, "I guess I'm going to have to call you next hand/next orbit/the last hand of the night," would that be a call?

The most important thing is that you hadn't finished your statement. For those in the "spoken words are binding" camp, you should at least be judged on your full statement.

I think you are bound by the floor's ruling, however.

So I just felt bad about the way it went down.

Understandable.

 

[umbkcshah]

I could go either way, I think it's on you to be a bit more careful with words. 'Call, fold and raise' allow for misunderstandings and unfavorable rulings.

 

[Budha]

In a perfect scenario, as several folks have already said, the other player should have clarified “is that a call”. But it’s a home game, stuff happens - lol.

Given the string of circumstances, the players’ reaction, in a home game scenario- it’s marginal if that’s a call or not, IMO. The ruling seems largely based on the other players reaction, which could reasonably be construed as he thought you called and then gave away information after. Which, in the moment, seems reasonable. I could agree with the ruling as made, at the time, given the circumstances.

I think you handled it 100% correctly by deferring to the table, since you were the host. Tricky situation, but handled appropriately.

 

[jpietrella]

Not a call

 

[Rhodeman77]

Lesson from this and others scenarios that have been brought up:

Always, always be extra careful when making any statement with the words: call, fold, raise in them.

It is easy for a player to manipulate that type of statement to get extra information from the other player. The player that moved all-in should not have to ask if it is a call or not. He made his action, he should not be forced to make an additional statement/action that could give the other player more information than he is entitled to.

 

[LeGold]

 

[upNdown]

I’m surprised by the overwhelming “not a call” response here. In the moment, I felt like “call” was the right ruling, and I figured the responses here would skew that way, though maybe something closer to 50/50.

 

[natumes]

I probably would have ruled this a call. If you had finished your statement or even gotten a few more words out, maybe not. I do think it would be necessary to have been there to be certain. I always encourage players to not use call, raise, or fold in sentences when action is on them to avoid any confusion.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Not a call. An out loud discussion about future action.

I'm not sure how you can say that without being there and hearing the way those words were said though. It's an ambiguous sentence at best, the true intended meaning of which can really only be determined by hearing the vocal inflections, pauses in phrasing, and which words in the sentence received emphasis. That statement can very clearly be intended as a call or very clearly be intended as "I'm still thinking about this decision" depending on how it was said.

 

[Meddler2]

There’s some backstory to this which makes it interesting if not relevant but I’ll write that after.

The action doesn’t marke very much but I think I bet pre and got one caller. I think I bet the flop and he called, I probably checked the turn and he checked back, and I’m not even sure if I bet the river and he jammed or if I checked the river and he jammed.
But there was like $20ish in the pot, he jammed like $65, I tanked, kinda held my cards up in the air and said “well I think I’m going to have to call . . .” And as I said that he grabbed his cards and looked at them like he was about to table the nuts. So I paused mid-sentence and thought about what was happening before I could finish my sentence. And I’m not even sure who said something but it was obvious that some people thought it was a call.
It’s my game, so I can’t rule, so I look to another guy, who’s not in the hand and who’s worked tons of dealer and floor. And he said yeah that sounds like a call. And I said shit I didn’t even get to finish what I was saying. And he’s like it doesn’t matter. And I’m like yeah you’re right, shit, I guess I have to call. So I called, and I won with a mid pair bluff catcher.

The interesting backstory is this is my best and oldest poker buddy. Last week I called down his a huge river shove holding only 33 and won. And you could tell it annoyed him tonight, because he had jammed rivers on me at least a couple of times. so when he jammed on me this time my grand statement was going to be “well I think I’m going to have to call you down one of these times if you’re gonna keep pushing me around, but it’s not going to be this time.”

So I really didn’t want to call. But after like 5-10 seconds of discussion I realized I’d called and I agreed to it. So I just felt bad about the way it went down.

What would RJL do?

 

[Brandon]

At the end of the day, a player should always ask for confirmation of a verbal action before acting. We can twist words around many ways to get a reaction in which another player interprets differently. Same thing with stack sizes, bet sizing, etc. if you don’t confirm the action, you only have yourself to blame.

My question about the situation was precisely around this thought but I feel a tad different. I’m not showing until I hear a clear call OR money goes across the betting line. Pretty sure if the bet is $100 and I don’t say a word, but move $100 across the betting line, that’s a call WITHOUT saying call or I THINK I may call. I’m either saying “is that a call?” Or I’m waiting for chips to move across the table. Can be questionable and leading but if I’m too eager to flip my cards over or make any gesture, I’m also a tad guilty. I believe there was a thread on estimating chip count as well here. Where player A asked for chip count, and player b saud “its about $100” so based on that info player A calls and it turns out to be $150 and player A is angry that he trusted a guess and wanted to minimize his loss to the $100 estimate. I’m not saying every situation is the same, and certainly hard to draw a line that’s clear, but if you’re THAT unsure, ask….do your diligence when your money is in the pot! That includes counts AND another player’s “call” or not.

 

[glynn]

How does that make sense? How do you control how anyone interprets your words?

You don't. The designated arbitrator goes by the "reasonable person" standard just like in a casino or in a court of law, because we are not robots. If someone interprets a sequence of words unreasonably, then that is his problem, but you in no way have to control or even care about how he interprets them.

The alternative to that standard is to allow for some things to be said without them being bound to their reasonable interpretation. This punishes reasonable players while rewarding — incentivizing, even! — the blabbermouth and potential angler. Plus, you'd just be drawing a new but more arbitrary line.

The above is not a comment on the exact facts in the OP.

I keep it simple at my table, I am the only opinion that matters. If I said it was a call, it was a call. If I say it wasn’t, it wasn’t.

All my players know this, and trust my ruling. I’ve had to lock in a few verbal actions and bind them, one was an all in that lost. He was poopy about it, but it was clear. It all depends on what was said and how it’s said.

This is the way.

 

[BGinGA]

I rule it is a call. I don't tolerate any type of angle-shooting, whether intentional or not.

If I hear the word 'fold', it's a fold. If I hear the word 'call', it's a call. Say what you mean, or say nothing. No word salads allowed.


"I wouldn't not want to fold." wtf does that mean?