Hand from today (1 Viewer)

[WedgeRock]

Fold, but call or maybe raise? Don't paint the poor guy into a corner, give him some options!

Fold or shove. And only shove if you have a strong read that your middle two pair is better.

With 87 hitting top two on the flop, you can expect that an overcard was coming on the turn or river, and I would have taken a stronger stab then. Now, the board hits more of his range and there are better spots for middle 2 pair if you're not sure if you are good.

 

[Ben]

I'm getting it in at this point getting over 2-1, but I'm not very happy about it. The ace doesn't hit him much - the bigger problem is the ace should make him less likely to stack off with lesser hands. Basically he has two hands that beat us (A8 and 22) and two that don't (82 and 72, which he might not do this with now.) Plus some (pretty good?) chance of a bluff.

Because you're giving him the opportunity to bet you out of the hand on the river... He my have a piece, but not the best hand... Your check tells him he might be good and with that in mind, he makes a bet you can't call.

Why wouldn't you be able to call? You still have a hand near the top of your range that has been hugely under-repped and he didn't bet the turn. If the river is a 6 or J and he bets huge I'm folding, but it's a snap-call in any other circumstance.

 

[WedgeRock]

Why wouldn't you be able to call? You still have a hand near the top of your range that has been hugely under-repped and he didn't bet the turn. If the river is a 6 or J and he bets huge I'm folding, but it's a snap-call in any other circumstance.

Maybe I should have said, checking back the turn gives up control of the hand. He limped PF, so he could have ATC. He raised a ragged flop and we took a passive line. He checked raised the turn. If we call the turn, I think he's gonna make a strong river, no matter what the card is (or if we bet something like $35 on the turn, he'll re-raise to $100 ). I don't think a river bet is a snap call.

There was a flop bet and he raised. Now there's a turn bet and he check-raised. He takes that line with 22. Or A7/A8. Without knowing his bluff tendency, I would take my time before calling a strong non-J/6 river bet.

 

[BGinGA]

He could even be slow-playing aces, kings, or queens. I've seen crazier plays.....

 

[WedgeRock]

He could even be slow-playing aces, kings, or queens. I've seen crazier plays.....

Note to self, always check-raise @BGinGA on the turn.

 

[Ben]

Maybe I should have said, checking back the turn gives up control of the hand. He limped PF, so he could have ATC. He raised a ragged flop and we took a passive line. He checked raised the turn. If we call the turn, I think he's gonna make a strong river, no matter what the card is (or if we bet something like $35 on the turn, he'll re-raise to $100 ). I don't think a river bet is a snap call.

There was a flop bet and he raised. Now there's a turn bet and he check-raised. He takes that line with 22. Or A7/A8. Without knowing his bluff tendency, I would take my time before calling a strong non-J/6 river bet.

I was talking about reasons to check behind on the turn. In that case, the river is a snap-call in almost all circumstances.

As played, villain only has like $65-$70 behind after the $100 turn bet. Hero must jam to make sure it gets that money if villain is semi-bluffing with a draw (or fold - folding is not totally unreasonable, but just too weak with this hand IMO.)

 

[Mojo1312]

Villain could be trapping with a set, or he could be exploiting Hero's timidity. Good strong play either way. I don't like Hero's position. Villain 3x raises SB with multiple players yet to act, then aggressively check raises Hero on the turn. I don't believe Hero has had the hand experience to know with any confidence or certitude Villain's line of play, if correct, I am finding a fold in this situation ($65 invested) more often than a call. Hero is basically pot committed if he continues with his hand.

 

[AWenger]

With 87 hitting top two on the flop, you can expect that an overcard was coming on the turn or river, and I would have taken a stronger stab then.

^^ This is a really good point.

he could be exploiting Hero's timidity.

^^ This is also a really good point -- you've really underrepresented the strength of your hand by just flatting the flop. When you lead for 1/2 pot, $35 on the turn, what does Villian think you have? Does he read your bet as weak? Does he think you're trying to steal it? If he thinks you've got a draw or a weak 1 pair, he could be raising with a strong 1 pair hand or worse 2 pair hand, or even a bluff of his own, if he thinks you will fold. Since Villian was BB and saw flop for free, his range is literally any 2 cards, maybe some bluffs, if turn brought a backdoor flush draw. Is it even possible Villain has a hand like A9 or A6 suited, with an overcard(s), backdoor flush & backdoor straight draws, and hit the A?

As played, minus any live reads/'opponent's a nit' type of thing, I'm probably shoving/never folding here on the turn, for the size of the pot and the stacks behind (around $135 more for you to put opponent all-in. (If stacks were deeper, it'd be a different story. Also, if preflop action had been different, and Villain had called a raise preflop from the BB, then it's different, he's rarely got 82 or 72 in that case.)

If he's got the few combinations of 22, 77, 88, A8, A7, (or A2 - which would be pretty gross), then you lose. Everything else you beat (right now).

 

[onerand]

This is a tough spot. You bet too small on the turn in my eyes and he may be making a move, but this is a super strong line, but he could have 82/72, so meh. I'd probably go with it, calling now and calling any river that's not another A or 2, but he has not much left, so tapping now is fine too. Your hand looks like T9 to some.

Flop is ok; can raise but then going with it against BB because he is too short for you to raise fold.

 

[BukNaked36]

Interesting hand – thanks for posting

Really struggling with the flop raise – feels like a donk with an overpair or a set

Turn raise is telling us we’re behind

The worse this player is, the more likely we're behind

Most conclusive evidence – hero has already been coolered once today, and is running bad => villain has AA or 22

 

[BGinGA]

just fold now to somebody's pocket twos, and save yourself some grief.

 

[Mojo1312]

I think additional info is needed. Does this player go by the name of Chippy by any chance?

 

[krafticus]

I think additional info is needed. Does this player go by the name of Chippy by any chance?

Haha. No, he wasn’t there. @MikesDad was, but was not involved in this hand

 

[Mojo1312]

Curious as to how many hands Hero has played with Villain and how he reads his aggressive play.

 

[krafticus]

Totals hands.. 10ish. I don’t play in a casino but once or twice per year.

 

[AWenger]

Results?

 

[krafticus]

I’ll post in the am

 

[Jimulacrum]

Curious as to how many hands Hero has played with Villain and how he reads his aggressive play.

Yeah, this kinda of situation is very player-dependent. With some types of players (e.g., an OMC or @JoseRijo), I'm snap-folding, and with others I'm snap-shoving.

With an unknown player, I'd have to take my time, maybe call him some mean names and stare deep into his soul. Unless he gives me something to go on, I'll tend toward folding, because the type of player I'd snap-shove in this spot is generally rarer than the tighter type of player I'd fold to. It's a close call, though, because 82 and 72 are still potentially in play. If he were playing from outside the blinds or in a raised pot, it would be an easy fold. (Lesson: Come in for a raise next time.)

Totals hands.. 10ish. I don’t play in a casino but once or twice per year.

How many of those 10 hands did he take to a flop? Did he raise or limp? Was he aggressive after the flop?

 

[krafticus]

Ok, once villain checks, I bet $35. Villain thinks for a second, and raises to $100. Hero...

Results:
Hero thinks for a minute, and folds. After running bad, I made the decision on that fact alone. Had I really thought, I would have shoved as I can’t put him on Aces or even A8. Really thought he had 22 or 77.

I turned my hand face up, and he was shocked. He said he had pocket 10s and thought he was good. Weird hand for sure.

After reading these responses, I’m glad it was not a clear cut decision. I also learned how crappy I am at poker too... ;-)

 

[Jimulacrum]

I turned my hand face up, and he was shocked. He said he had pocket 10s and thought he was good.

This is the danger in flatting the flop: you have a type of hand that needs information, but flatting makes it much harder to read Villain's range than if you had raised.

No way he's shoving tens on the flop or check-raise shoving the turn if you had made it $60 to go. Now you can properly read his very strong moves as the top of his range, instead of worrying about this silliness.

Such a weird way for Villain to play tens. I can get that he thinks he might be good, but it's just not a spot to try to play for stacks. Reminds me of newbie players who get their first pocket pairs and think they've got the sun, moon, and stars in their hands.

 

[Ben]

If there were any way to prove it, I would lay 3-1 that villain was lying about having TT.

Which probably means he had you beat, and was surprised that he didn't get the rest of your money. So WP then!

 

[Mojo1312]

Life interfered with my being able to play poker for a couple of years. I started playing again in a weekly home game this past July.

I have played $1/$3 at the casino 4x in the last 6 weeks. (Distance keeps me from playing more often.) These clever lines designed to get into your head are more common now then when I first started playing in the casino. Especially if they know you are a new face. I am on board with Ben. Don't be fooled into believing he had Tens. I have noticed two things in the limited times that I have been back to the casino. One, the skill level seems to have narrowed, and there are fewer fish. Two, players are a bit more aggressive. Sometimes in ways that you may not expect.

There is the possibility, depending on his aggression level, that he could have raised with A,8. Given his position at the table, he could have been set mining. The pause before the raise could have been an act to induce a call. Observing his play closely for a few hours will give you a wealth of information, which is the best thing a player can do after making a tough laydown.

I thought I was being a bit nitty by posting that I would find a fold in this spot more often than a call. His conduct/comments should not be taking at face value. Chances are you made the right play.

 

[colter ripton]

I'm not sure what villan really had, but if I am in a 3 way limped pot with the 2 blinds and I flop top two pair I am playing this hand pretty fast............. if you are in a 5 or 6 way limped pot and you flop two pair you have to slow down and worry about sets and worry about the ace on the turn......... in a limped pot with the blinds I raise on the flop and on the turn and I raise somewhere near the pot...... if I get shoved on I call on either of those two streets........ especially without much history with either player flopping top two is just too strong a hand to lay down in this situation........ maybe he got you with the ace.... but I'm still getting it in here most of the time......he could have also had 10s..... most players would think their 10s are good here with how passively you played the hand

 

[AWenger]

I turned my hand face up, and he was shocked. He said he had pocket 10s and thought he was good. Weird hand for sure.
After reading these responses, I’m glad it was not a clear cut decision. I also learned how crappy I am at poker too... ;-)

In general, I have a much easier time making thoughtful decisions in strategy threads than when I need to decide quickly at the table.

If there were any way to prove it, I would lay 3-1 that villain was lying about having TT.
Which probably means he had you beat, and was surprised that he didn't get the rest of your money. So WP then!

Possible, but I'm guessing that the "shocked" reaction above would lead me to believe that the opponent wasn't lying. If there was any way to prove it, I'd lay $200 to your $600. And he would have had to be really crafty to come up with a 'lie' about having 10s on the fly in the moment. Other hands make more sense rather than 10s.

I was playing 1-3 at a casino the other week at a fairly nitty table, and someone flatted QQ from middle late position in a multi-way pot after an early raiser raised with TT, (they both flopped sets) so it's not out of the realm of possibility that the BB had 10s in this hand.