So, in your game, if I announce I have to leave at x:00, or 30 min… and hit the HHJ right before that, are you now required to stay?
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High hand grumbles at private game (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Taghkanic
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I'm assuming resentment and/or frustration? You tell me. I wasn't trying to be insulting by using the word "feelings" and insinuate you're being soft or feminine but thats what they are.
The for profit game makes a lot more sense. In my previous posts I wanted to ask in an edit why it seems difficult or why there wasnt a "locker room" talk amongst the guys about the new guy after he left (about whether he is a good fit). The fact that OP had to go to the host to tell the regular to tell his friend is rather indirect for a group of buddies playing a social game at home.
I am very new to the poker world and really wanted to have a discussion just on the social dynamics of home games as I really only envision playing with my close buddies to avoid situations like this but didnt want to hijack this thread or start a new one. But in this instance, if it were my group of friends, I dont see us not having a quick discussion about the kids behavior collectively if a number of us had a problem with his etiquette. No different if no poker game was involved and my friend brought a guest to my home and he just blatantly came to freeload my food, alcohol, and not make friends. We are definitely talking to the guy who brought him and ask "what is that about?" Which is why in my first post which OP chose to ignore was asking what was the regular who brought him's response to the whole thing. Surely, he's aware of house etiquette and what the group loosely expects from each other.
I suspect the kid read the room and understood this wasn't a game between close buddies, therefore moved accordingly. OP has already made up in his mind that he doesnt want to play with the kid down the road, maybe he knew too. Energy doesnt lie.
The jackpot winner is a winner in more ways than the jackpot.
This game was no game amongst friends, but a raked for profit game and the regulars are pissed they couldn’t take the jackpot winner’s money.
Like @DrStrange I'm beginning to believe this is more a "for profit" rake than a friendly "my wife let's me host but says I can't pay for everything" game. In this case I feel no compulsion to tip anything other than a "kind gesture" amount to the dealer. In the friendly games I have a relationship with many of the players and hosts, and, am happy to help out and tip generously when I cash big. Good hosting is time consuming and costly, and, I appreciate an atmosphere that's not the casino, where I can meet with friends and chill yet still have nice chips, nice chairs and tables, and a decent amount of food/beverage options. Personally I'm ok with helping to foot that bill.
If this was the situation, "friendly game," then it's in bad taste not to a tip some when pocketing a a huge pot. What's even worse about this deal is that OP seems to have been avoiding answering the rake question. Note to self... don't read these posts from OP from now on.
If this was the situation, "friendly game," then it's in bad taste not to a tip some when pocketing a a huge pot. What's even worse about this deal is that OP seems to have been avoiding answering the rake question. Note to self... don't read these posts from OP from now on.
Bluegrass Poker
Flush
Agreed. OP has responded to a lot of posts but has conveniently ignored all the posts calling for an actual description of the game and rake setup.
GoJo_Dingo
Pair
And is there anything really wrong with that? The nitting up part ok but certainly not tipping the dealer. Just asking.
I guess if food and beverage is provided then what can you do? Require a "house" or "food and beverage fee"?
My opinion, no - there is nothing wrong with what the kid did. But also nothing wrong with not inviting back someone too, that’s completely up to the game organizer.
I will admit, my knee jerk response was from a friendly type game perspective. As that’s what I’m used to.
However, after recognizing this is a higher stakes raked game I will concede that this environment probably fits the “for profit” atmosphere that the kid player is looking for. And if that’s what I was running, I would have no problem having the kid back. But for my friendly low stakes game, I would probably move him to the back of the list.
So yeah. Nothing wrong with what either party did in my opinion.
The question remains, what is "lightly raked".
Rake on pots (which is rake, however low) or a participation fee to cover food/refreshments/booze and dealer basic remuneration?
Rake on pots (which is rake, however low) or a participation fee to cover food/refreshments/booze and dealer basic remuneration?
Bluegrass Poker
Flush
Or just answer the question everyone is asking and be done with it.
OP
OP
Pretty special case you cite there. Unlikely to happen. Anyway very different than the situation described.
In someone else’s game.
But no one is required to do anything in my game. That includes the host, who is not required to invite anyone back.
OP
OP
The game I went to (where this happened) is very friendly, with the usual razzing among those who know each other well.
It has a steady population of regs and rotating dealers who are on good terms.
The guy who hit the HH is a new face who has only shown a few times at long intervals between each appearance. (Two out of three times he sat on his chips once he got up.)
OP
OP
I don’t regret the thread in the least. I do feel bad that some people never mastered reading comp.
OP
OP
And for the record, it’s a weekly 1/3 game where the dealers work just for tips. The host takes a rake but much of it goes to dinner which he either cooks or orders in, an open fridge full of beer, sodas, etc.
The host also routinely offers various mystery bounties and other prizes out of his pocket. He freely extends credit to trusted players at no interest, once they are established in the group and he’s confident they will pay him back in a timely way. (No credit extended to others even if they’ll pay interest.)
Recently he won $15K in a tournament and put about $1K of it into game promotions. Not a greedy guy at all.
I’m short, this is not one of those wildly exploitative raked games typical of big cities. (I’ve been invited to several within an hour of me and do not go to those places.)
And no, I did not post this to give lectures back to the other regs. The host—who I walk our dogs with regularly—asked me after the fact what I thought about the grumbling, since I had not said a peep in-game.
It struck me as one of those interesting situations worthy of discussion, especially among those of us on PCF who occasionally have to moderate the types of tensions which sometimes arise among players, even those who are longtime friends.
One thing I can say for sure is that if the kid were a longtime reg, he absolutely would have gotten razzed like crazy about knitting it up. The fact that he is a newbie is almost certainly why he was spared criticism. He also probably won’t get invited back unless the host runs short of players, which seems unlikely to happen.
The host also routinely offers various mystery bounties and other prizes out of his pocket. He freely extends credit to trusted players at no interest, once they are established in the group and he’s confident they will pay him back in a timely way. (No credit extended to others even if they’ll pay interest.)
Recently he won $15K in a tournament and put about $1K of it into game promotions. Not a greedy guy at all.
I’m short, this is not one of those wildly exploitative raked games typical of big cities. (I’ve been invited to several within an hour of me and do not go to those places.)
And no, I did not post this to give lectures back to the other regs. The host—who I walk our dogs with regularly—asked me after the fact what I thought about the grumbling, since I had not said a peep in-game.
It struck me as one of those interesting situations worthy of discussion, especially among those of us on PCF who occasionally have to moderate the types of tensions which sometimes arise among players, even those who are longtime friends.
One thing I can say for sure is that if the kid were a longtime reg, he absolutely would have gotten razzed like crazy about knitting it up. The fact that he is a newbie is almost certainly why he was spared criticism. He also probably won’t get invited back unless the host runs short of players, which seems unlikely to happen.
I guess I find it odd that people are willing to excuse the kid for nitting it up and leaving early if it actually was a heavily raked “for profit” game. It’s still a private game and everybody knows that action players are welcome at any kind of game. Nits are only welcome when you need to fill seats. (I’ll freely admit that I made similar mistakes early on, before I figured things out. And fwiw, it would have helped if somebody tipped me off.)
And the responses that say “he’s entitled to do whatever he wants, he just might not get invited back” are useless. We’re poker players talking about a poker game. We know people are legally entitled to cash out after the second hand - nobody cares.
I’ll stand by my tipping comment though, and I think this is a host issue. As in, it’s the hosts responsibility to make sure the dealer is getting paid. If the host thinks the dealer is entitled to a share of that jackpot, he’s gotta make that clear to his players.
And the responses that say “he’s entitled to do whatever he wants, he just might not get invited back” are useless. We’re poker players talking about a poker game. We know people are legally entitled to cash out after the second hand - nobody cares.
I’ll stand by my tipping comment though, and I think this is a host issue. As in, it’s the hosts responsibility to make sure the dealer is getting paid. If the host thinks the dealer is entitled to a share of that jackpot, he’s gotta make that clear to his players.
@upNdown If no one tipped the dealers, and, the host of a "friendly" game decided he just couldn't afford to keep the dealer, and consequently the game became a self dealt game, would you still be as eager to play at that game knowing everyone had to pass the deal. If you can unequivocally say you'd have no problem doing the self deal, then by all means don't tip. If you like having good dealers isn't it worth a few bucks from the winners to help the host pay for the dealers?
Personally I HATE self dealt games. I'm happy with helping to pay for a good dealer. Of the friendly games I frequently attend, the amount that is consumed by the host for expenses, coupled with what I tip is still less than at a casino, and, I enjoy the game more, 99 times out of a hundred.
Personally I HATE self dealt games. I'm happy with helping to pay for a good dealer. Of the friendly games I frequently attend, the amount that is consumed by the host for expenses, coupled with what I tip is still less than at a casino, and, I enjoy the game more, 99 times out of a hundred.
Personally I don't mind self-dealt games. I prefer a competent dealer, but when he's pulling a big blind or two out of every hand on top of a rake, I'm not sure I love the value. But regardless, that's not what I meant at all. I'll always tip a dealer when I drag a pot. I'm not at all opposed to tipping dealers. I'm opposed to the idea that the dealer is entitled to a piece of a jackpot which is made up of money that's been raked from pots which have presumably already been tipped. I mentioned this earlier, but I shouldn't expect everybody to remember everybody's opinions. And I'm not even opposed to tipping the dealer on that jackpot. But A) that would be because of my generosity, not because I think he's entitled to it, and B) as I said before, it wouldn't be a piece of it. He's probably getting like $25 from me. The only way he's getting $100 from me is if the host made it clear that that was the expectation. And then that would be a different discussion.
To the people fixated on rake saying it's all about money as if unraked or "friendly" games aren't, cut the bullshit. If money is on the table it's about money. Playing microstakes with chips that are less than $1? It's still money. A poker game is only about fun if you're playing for high fives and ass slaps.
Tipping - optional unless otherwise specified. Not tipping is usually a bad choice because it won't make you any friends and could get you uninvited but still the individual's choice. Personally I would tip for a jackpot but that's just me. OP's choice to tip and spread to everyone is excessive and unnecessary in my opinion but nothing wrong with that.
Nitting up after a win - their money, their choice. Personally I would rather they leave instead of being a dead seat. It's like they want to hit and run but think no one notices the delayed hit and run which I find insulting and may lead to massive shit talking if I'm drinking.
High hand jackpot - everyone is eligible. I think of it like a slot machine. Some people might contribute a lot to building a progressive jackpot, but someone could hit it on on their first min bet spin. Hope the win encourages them to play at future games more often.
Sounds like the regs felt entitled to the jackpot and got salty when they didn't get a piece of it. Nobody like a winner.
If there's anyone to be annoyed at it should be the guy who invited the jackpot nit. That guy was responsible for explaining the etiquette and expectations of the game.
Tipping - optional unless otherwise specified. Not tipping is usually a bad choice because it won't make you any friends and could get you uninvited but still the individual's choice. Personally I would tip for a jackpot but that's just me. OP's choice to tip and spread to everyone is excessive and unnecessary in my opinion but nothing wrong with that.
Nitting up after a win - their money, their choice. Personally I would rather they leave instead of being a dead seat. It's like they want to hit and run but think no one notices the delayed hit and run which I find insulting and may lead to massive shit talking if I'm drinking.
High hand jackpot - everyone is eligible. I think of it like a slot machine. Some people might contribute a lot to building a progressive jackpot, but someone could hit it on on their first min bet spin. Hope the win encourages them to play at future games more often.
Sounds like the regs felt entitled to the jackpot and got salty when they didn't get a piece of it. Nobody like a winner.
If there's anyone to be annoyed at it should be the guy who invited the jackpot nit. That guy was responsible for explaining the etiquette and expectations of the game.
I guess I view things differently than duckfat in that I've played in underground games where the host is trying to make a profit, and, I feel no inclination to further tip the host, he's basically running a business and it's on him to make his business appealing to me. If/ when I drag a pot I'll usually tip a good dealer a token amount.
On the other hand, I don't look at my friends games/homes as a business, I view it as them opening up their home to their friends that play poker. They've invested in tables, chairs, dealers and food/beverage, and, usually pull a small amount to help offset costs. Some don't. Again, I know these people well, we do other social functions together, know each others families, etc. I don't view them as "out for the money" because they simply aren't. Now, every one that sits at that game wants to end up with every chip on the table, but, that's the competitive game side of us. We don't, however, take that same approach to the host and his social generosity. The dealers are mostly non professional, but good to great, and though they are paid a small amount, they deal for tips mainly. The game runs much smoother with a good dealer, and, we as a group are happy to help offset the costs by tipping. There's no bullshit to that, we're good hearted people that care about our friends and their families. We're thankful that we don't have to drive 30-45 minutes to the nearest casino, that we can sit with friends and catch up while playing poker.
There have been times that we've had disagreements, and, things have gotten heated, but, in the end, this group of people have been playing together for many, many years. At the best of it, though, the core group has stuck together. It truly can be a competitive yet friendly game. Hopefully you can find the same thing at some point in life.
If these same hosts started viewing this as a money making venture then several of us would likely have a different take on things. Thankfully that's not the case.
On the other hand, I don't look at my friends games/homes as a business, I view it as them opening up their home to their friends that play poker. They've invested in tables, chairs, dealers and food/beverage, and, usually pull a small amount to help offset costs. Some don't. Again, I know these people well, we do other social functions together, know each others families, etc. I don't view them as "out for the money" because they simply aren't. Now, every one that sits at that game wants to end up with every chip on the table, but, that's the competitive game side of us. We don't, however, take that same approach to the host and his social generosity. The dealers are mostly non professional, but good to great, and though they are paid a small amount, they deal for tips mainly. The game runs much smoother with a good dealer, and, we as a group are happy to help offset the costs by tipping. There's no bullshit to that, we're good hearted people that care about our friends and their families. We're thankful that we don't have to drive 30-45 minutes to the nearest casino, that we can sit with friends and catch up while playing poker.
There have been times that we've had disagreements, and, things have gotten heated, but, in the end, this group of people have been playing together for many, many years. At the best of it, though, the core group has stuck together. It truly can be a competitive yet friendly game. Hopefully you can find the same thing at some point in life.
If these same hosts started viewing this as a money making venture then several of us would likely have a different take on things. Thankfully that's not the case.
BarrieJ3
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It's a social environment for many.
How tragically boring it most be to have every host/player make it all about money. That sounds much more like a job than fun, then again a lot of folks here play Hold 'Em and that sounds like a prison sentence more than a job.
If that's how you feel and how you play, you should attend a "fun" game. Nothing better than shoving all in blind and watching your J3o double up over pocket aces!
Every home game is different...now after 5 pages on feedback...there is really only one thing left to do. Have a conversation with the guest on what is expected for this particular home game. He can decide if he wants to conform and the host can decide if he wants to continue to invite him. For all we know the guest is oblivious to the expectations of this game.....again....each game is different. Make your expectations clear...until then you cannot be surprised by behavior that is not the desired one.
Rakrul
Straight
I'm fine with this for both settings (raked game/home game). However, speaking my POV I'm gonna play how I think it's most profitable to me when I'm sitting at either table because what I find fun with mind sports is playing better than other players. If the other players want me to play (in my eyes) unprofitable/poorly so they can win/lose less I'm not gonna do that and I'll be fine with not being invited back. That being said, I suck so I make plenty of mistakes and poor plays the few hands I do play so I don't think people mind Mr Clever Fish nitting it up a bit.
And some final thoughts on HHJP/BBJP - If you absolutely insist on this I would rather suggest something like take 30% from the JP and divide it up amongst all players that was dealt the hand this happened in with the biggest prize money being dealt to the JP-winner whichever way you think is best. That way everyone gets their share, it's not big enough for someone to suddenly be sitting with scared money, and most of the money will be injected back into that ecosystem, and noone hates on the winner. On the plus side, the JP isn't reduced to 0 and people might get a bit splashier with the free money, meaning more action and more rake. And remember kids, more rake is better!
@KHarp1 I didn't say tip the host, idk if that was mentioned in any previous post. I'm talking about tipping the dealer. If at a casino or underground raked game I wouldn't tip the host, that makes no sense, but dealers like many other tipped service jobs usually have a low hourly rate because tips are factored in so tipping the dealer is a given. In an unraked home game I usually bring food/alcohol so that would be my contribution but I would chip in to cover some of the expense if I didn't bring anything. At least that's how I understand it.
@BarrieJ3 You seem to be one of those in that camp of raked = money, no fun and unraked = fun. That's entirely wrong. I've been to raked games that are loads of fun and unraked games that are deathly boring. If you're only at a poker game to socialize and have fun then don't play for money, bet for hugs and belly rubs. If you can't have fun at a game without putting money in it then clearly you aren't playing only for fun. This will be easier to understand once you stop lying to yourself.
@BarrieJ3 You seem to be one of those in that camp of raked = money, no fun and unraked = fun. That's entirely wrong. I've been to raked games that are loads of fun and unraked games that are deathly boring. If you're only at a poker game to socialize and have fun then don't play for money, bet for hugs and belly rubs. If you can't have fun at a game without putting money in it then clearly you aren't playing only for fun. This will be easier to understand once you stop lying to yourself.
Actually, this is what’s entirely wrong. Poker is a game that’s completely unplayable if you take away the winning/losing of money. There has to be some (be it cents/a couple of bucks/hundreds/thousands; that’s all relative and depends on the players) ramifications for the actions taken at the poker table. Otherwise you end up with something very different. Exhibit A: online playmoney games.
That doesn’t mean that a poker game involving real money can’t be a game that exists mostly for fun.
ekricket
Royal Flush
BarrieJ3
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Huh? I'm in a camp of raked=money and unraked=fun? I have plenty of fun playing in Vegas, I play the same way I do at home games having a great time.
No idea why you would assume these things. My comments were based directly off of your literal post, where you wrote:
"If money is on the table it's about money. Playing microstakes with chips that are less than $1? It's still money. A poker game is only about fun if you're playing for high fives and ass slaps."
If every decision you make at the table is about money, that's your right. It's just not what I do. The other parts though you can fuck right off with though. I can't play poker to socialize and have fun? I'm lying to myself? I've spent $20k+ out of pocket to host a game the last 2-3 years. And I'm lifetime up in raked games/vegas. I play poker to have a good time, sorry that doesn't jive with your worldview.
Now that this has gotten a bit of the rails, and I'm partly to blame, it took OP 134 posts to finally answer the questions, that so many had asked, about the structure of the game, which is his right, but, left a lot for the rest of us to argue over.
He won the pot, there were no known strings attached, so, he can do as he wishes. I expect to see this in a casino, or, am not surprised when I see it there. Am more surprised when I see it in a friendlier home game setting. Whoever brought him should be publicly shamed, and, the air let out of his tires.
He won the pot, there were no known strings attached, so, he can do as he wishes. I expect to see this in a casino, or, am not surprised when I see it there. Am more surprised when I see it in a friendlier home game setting. Whoever brought him should be publicly shamed, and, the air let out of his tires.
@BarrieJ3 Do I care to read through 5 pages and quote specific posts? No, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't you that made the first comment about raked games. However, you are unnecessarily getting bent out of shape. Why did you care to respond in the first place if it doesn't apply to you? I didn't say anything about how I approach games. I was shooting down the viewpoint made by those saying the game is raked so it's about money and the kid can do whatever he wants. That justification makes absolutely no sense because unraked games also have money involved so the kid can still do whatever he wants with the money he won.
The raked game haters seem to be taking some moral high ground that is completely asinine which is why I went to the extreme saying to play for "high fives and ass slaps" if all they want to do is have fun at their unraked games and hate on people who don't play they way they want them to and take home a profit.
The rest of it though, you can fuck right off into some reading comprehension lessons.
The raked game haters seem to be taking some moral high ground that is completely asinine which is why I went to the extreme saying to play for "high fives and ass slaps" if all they want to do is have fun at their unraked games and hate on people who don't play they way they want them to and take home a profit.
The rest of it though, you can fuck right off into some reading comprehension lessons.
BarrieJ3
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"I don't want to read what anyone posted, but I want to jump in and quote people's comments, despite again not knowing what they said, the background, or reading the thread.
And then I'll have the audacity to suggest reading comprehension to others."
Love finding selfawarewolves in the wild.
And then I'll have the audacity to suggest reading comprehension to others."
Love finding selfawarewolves in the wild.
Wow, you're amazingly stupid. I never said those things nor did I quote anyone. My comments were directed at the people who are of the mindset that rake games are about money and not fun. Which given your subsequent replies doesn't even apply to you. But you need to make everything about you so good job self centered clown.
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