Home Game Cheating (2 Viewers)

[BryantRC]

3 weeks, seems long if seriously concerned about a cheat.

No examples, also how is he manipulating the deck if he's not shuffling. If he was shuffling, this is a game security issue imo.

Forget the show, but this was a lighter in Hollywood version. Again if I had concerns, a video or photo would show weird placement of the card protector.


Who knows. Seems like a reason to be concerned when the deck he's manipulated (shuffled) as a great mechanic can set the deck and know the result based on his hand.

This makes zero sense unless he's shuffling his own, which any host knows is a bad idea

How old were the decks, and images and comparisons. Maybe truth, but maybe group just can't fold strong hands.

Sample size, tournament, etc.

Rants need more, most of these seem like nothing burgers.

Counterpoint: Regarding his records, I don't really buy them. Everything seems too clean, like it was written in one sitting to provide 'proof'. No dates, etc.

Who knows, but it's good entertainment at least.

This was just a running tally for me to track how much I was up or down. Never meant for it to be public. Never expected anyone would see it but me. Your point is fair. I just offered it as a relevant data point. Take it or leave it.

 

[chippitydoodah]

My personal summary:

•Seven2Wizard started this whole thing and has been suspiciously silent ever since
•BryantRC is probably a cheater and chomps his fingernails to the bone but I could care less because who the fuck is he to me? Nobody.
•LouBdub asked to let bygones be bygones and still got sucked into this mess. He's the victim here (as in RIGHT HERE on PCF) where he shares his games & tourneys and his hot rod set. He adds fun & insightful content and doesn't want this shit show fucking any of that up.

Let it die already

 

[merkong]

 

[BryantRC]

note these time stamps from the two threads, Posts the bait, then Seven takes the bait, now Bryant is 'defending himself'

I've never met Lou, I don't care what he has done in his game, what I know is this, he's been here a min, he posts things and contributes, adds to posts, contributes, I've not really seen too much drama involving him, I'm not in the political forum and I don't know if he is or not, but what I know is manipulation, doesn't work on me

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I gave your question some more thought. It's a fair question. When you have been falsely accused of cheating, you feel the need to explain yourself up front when entering a new poker circle. I'd rather be honest with everyone upfront and you hear it from me first than build a relationship over time and then you hear about it elsewhere. I expected word would get out eventually so I posted my story immediately. I didn't expect it to happen so fast but it did. I hope that makes sense. Again, if you have never been in my shoes, just try to imagine.

This is why I posted my story in the Home Game Cheating thread. I posted it 8 minutes before Seven2Wizard accused me of cheating. I guess it's possible he saw it first... IDK. He didn't reference my story post. Either way, my intent was not baiting. I have explained my intent as best I can. Believe what you will.

 

[TomC727]

Cheating allegations require evidence....not smoke.

Um...

The smoke is part of the evidence.

 

[BryantRC]

Um...

The smoke is part of the evidence.

What evidence are you referring too? Smoke is not evidence. That was my point.

 

[umbkcshah]

In the spirit of the thread, I would like to admit to setting a deck of cards in my past. I moved all the face cards and aces to the top of the deck. However I was very unskilled, and anyone sober would have seen instantly.

Spoiler: Spoil

Maximum drinks were dished out, and they left my dorm room as alcohol was finally gone.

 

[Mick]

In the spirit of the thread, I would like to admit to setting a deck of cards in my past.

Lol. Me and a buddy did this once for a tournament first hand. We set up decks in case 6, 7, 8, or 9 players showed up. We gave everyone boats, quads, straight flushes, or nut flushes. Made it as unbelievable as we could.

Of course it was just for laughs, and we restarted the tournament the next hand, but everyone had a lot of fun for that one hand.

Think it went something like this:
KhQh to dealer, 7h8h sb, 10cJc bb, 10sJs utg, Ah3h utg+1, 99 utg+2, then gave 78 to remaining seats.
Flop 9h 10h Jd, turn Jh, river 9d.

 

[BryantRC]

Gentlemen,

It has been suggested that I provide some color to the conversation. Context matters, and there is always more to the story when it comes to the internet.

As I grow older, I am more able to walk away and ignore. However, when a club that I’ve put an insane amount of energy into is discussed, I feel it necessary to get involved.

Especially when a picture is posted at my table, my wife’s license plate (not ok with that), and this negative energy clouding around it all…

Context:

I run a pretty tight club where we have 24 players & 5 host tables (6th coming soon) with consistent weekly games. Tournaments, cash, heads up, and so on.

I’ll keep this simple so it doesn’t feel like a rant. I don’t want it to be. Probably will be…

• Bryant was studied for 3 weeks straight once things smelled funny. All hosts & some of the best players we have, dialed in. One of them is a literal human calculator. As in, he actually says things like “you have 37.98 odds…”

• We calculated the odds of all the big hands he dealt himself, and it was astronomical. It was consistent nuts, versus the 2nd, 3rd, and always rivered. This is called “the duke” (I hate that I know this now, but we did our homework)

• We use all in tokens. Something lucky or fun. His was a medallion, mirror finish. Looking back, and doing a bunch of research, I now know this as a “shiner” - something to peek at cards with as you slide them over.

• Bryant told me directly, he’s done card magic his entire life. Not a few months as he posted. My exact reply, “that’s a weird thing to tell a bunch of people at a poker table”

• Bryant only won big hands when he dealt. This was data we needed, and studied.

• All hosts inspected their decks, I’d say 80% of every single A/K/Q had “tick” notches in the side. All big hands he won…. He had the Ace, others had the K/Q version.

• I conducted an experiment and dealt an entire tournament, removing the deck from his hands. I even told the other hosts I wanted him to WIN or at a minimum continue playing the way he has. This was a Hail Mary for us to be WRONG. I rooted for him. But… No deck in his hand, and a NEW deck at that… He fell flat and was first out. Was also dead silent the entire game - not normal at all.

We absolutely wanted to avoid this. I had about half my group approach me speaking on it. I kept the pitchforks at bay, and started the eyes on approach. Some of us in our group are pretty savvy when it comes to approaching these situations [Narcotics Detective, Military Special Operations, and a few players with 20+ yrs poker experience] - I say this to simply give validity to those of us doing the homework.

We played devils advocate. We tried to let it sort out. But the above merely scratches the surface on a large list of situations that just didn’t add up.

In the end, the club was uncomfortable playing with him, and I made a decision, to protect the club, the vibe, the fun poker, and to tell Bryant it’s best that we part ways as the club doesn’t want to play cards if he’s at the table. I’m not gonna torch my club over one player who had a mountain of things piled against him.

Sorry for the rant,
Lou

Last post and I'm going to bed. @louBdub has a 334 thread where he post pics regularly. Many of those pics are from cameras all over his garage including a casino style camera in the ceiling directly over the table. If there were suspicions of cheating and a three week investigation was launched, there should have been a mountain of high resolution clear evidence against me if I was doing what Lou is saying. There has not been one shred of real evidence presented. Nothing. Lou says they found around 76 marked cards. That's nearly a deck and a half! Where are these cards? Did ya'll just throw them away? Did nobody take any pictures? I'm begging for evidence because I know the truth. I didn't cheat! Good night and God bless!

 

[Taghkanic]

Per DeusEx’s screenshots, the timestamps appear to show that Bryant posted about the cheating allegations *before* anyone else did.

That raises the question of why Bryant has claimed SevenWiz brought it up first, as if out of the blue.

It looks like a strike against your honesty, Bryant, which is crucial to the debate. Someone who makes things up is a lot more likely to be a cheat, in my experience.

So what is the explanation for apparently misrepresenting that key timeline? Do you dispute the screenshots? Did I miss something?

 

[glynn]

This is why I posted my story in the Home Game Cheating thread. I posted it 8 minutes before Seven2Wizard accused me of cheating. I guess it's possible he saw it first... IDK. He didn't reference my story post. Either way, my intent was not baiting. I have explained my intent as best I can. Believe what you will.

This might have garnered more sympathy and understanding if you hadn't spent a day insisting that Seven2Wizard publicly accused you out of nowhere. Instead, you appear to have hoped that nobody knows how to read timestamps. Not a good look!

Seven2Wizard started this whole thing

Okay so maybe not a terrible strategy.

 

[Taghkanic]

P.S. I agree with you, Bryant, that this is the best place to discuss chips and chip collecting. (It is not a terribly useful place for finding players for regular home games, at least unless you live in a few major population centers.)

But this forum has existed for years. You only joined shortly after being accused of cheating in a home game by a few people who are members.

That begs the question: Why had you never joined before?

Can you see how the timing looks motivated by a desire for some sort of revenge or justification, rather than to discuss chipping?

 

[glynn]

Within minutes of simply introducing myself @Seven2Wizard called me out

I was called out by Seven2Wizard and publicly accused of cheating 1 hour and 12 minutes after post my introduction post.

I did not bring Lou in to this. Seven2Wizard did. That all started on my introduction post and eventually bled over here.

I posted it 8 minutes before Seven2Wizard accused me of cheating.

All of these quotes are at a minimum misleading. Some are straight lies ("I did not bring Lou in to this.", "...and eventually bled over here"). You are not an honest person.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

When someone brings up the accusations you already brought up and act like they're to blame for said accusations being discussed:

 

[Taghkanic]

Last comment, for now, regarding Bryant’s claimed list of winning and losing sessions.

Cheating at cards does not always guarantee that a cheater wins every single session.

Showing some losses also does not prove anything.

1) Some people are still pretty bad at poker even when cheating. It requires not just extra knowledge of the cards, but a real understanding of the whole game.

2) Each player only gets to handle the deck meaningfully a few times per orbit. Unless the cheater sits out all other hands, they will still experience some variance if the main methods of cheating involve setting the deck, bottom-dealing, or the like.

3) There are forms of cheating at poker which merely confer an advantage, rather than perfect information. For example, knowing the position of a few cards in the deck helps the cheater, but does not mean they automatically win.

4) Even card-marking could be imperfect: A cheater might not see every mark, or might misread the mark, or might even mis-mark cards. Or in theory there could be more than one card-marker at the table, whoo is using a different system… etc. etc. Too many variables there to guarantee 100% success.

5) A truly sharp player would be mindful to mix in some losing sessions in their regular games, including some memorable big losing hands, so that the victims are less likely to catch on.

In short, I don’t know what the list of wins and losses tells us. In addition to the above, anyone could create a fake record, or it could contain mistakes such as the one already admitted.

(I’m speaking here generally, not just at the situation at hand.)

 

[Poker Zombie]

This is the best poker forum on the internet

Actually, I believe 2+2 is regarded as the best poker forum on the net. PCF is the best chip collectors site on the net. Obviously, there is other poker-related discussion here, but there is also a significant amount of other discussion here, such as the status of a hot dog or what you had for dinner.

If I were to create an account to defend myself from cheating allegations, it would have been at 2+2. If I were to defend myself from accusations for creating Paulson replicas that were indistinguishable from actual Paulsons, I would create an account here (and likely become a vendor).

Mind you, I am not weighing in on the cheaters debate. LoubDub is one of only 4 active posters that I have on blocked status, so I do not know if he has attempted to defend his reasons. Making a decision without all the available facts isn't rational thinking - it's poker.

 

[KHarp1]

I just want to say this one thing...you should all be ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES!! Look at all the time you've wasted reading through this crap! Even worse is that you've taken the bait and voluntarily posted something in a thread that quite likely has absolutely nothing to do with you in the least! Just sickens me!

 

[TomC727]

All of these quotes are at a minimum misleading. Some are straight lies ("I did not bring Lou in to this.", "...and eventually bled over here"). You are not an honest person.

This right here.

The OP seems to have a complete lack of incite if he really isn’t a cheat.

To claim to come here and not want drama, is either a lie, or he is literally not quite right in the head.

Who in their right mind would think it would be a good idea to come on this forum as a brand new member and then start a drama fest against a long time and very respected member of the community.

If you truly joined for chipping, then why not start a thread there. Nope. Just a bold tag line in the welcome section.

I just have a hard time believing the OP’s claims. It’s like he believes we live in a shoebox.

Smoke is the metaphor to begin an investigation. It is absolutely the basic evidence. If he doesn’t understand this, again, either missing something upstairs, or is a cheat.

The more I follow this thread, the more I believe he isn’t missing something upstairs.

 

[Hornet]

All I can say at this point for sure is that I’m still grossed out by the hand photo.

 

[Taghkanic]

I just want to say this one thing...you should all be ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES!! Look at all the time you've wasted reading through this crap! Even worse is that you've taken the bait and voluntarily posted something in a thread that quite likely has absolutely nothing to do with you in the least! Just sickens me!

Almost everything on the internet has almost nothing to do with any of us. Does not mean we don’t or shouldn’t participate if we choose to.

In any case, apply your logic to the OP. If it all is none of our business, why post about the situation at all? Or about anything really?

 

[louBdub]

This will be my final input on this situation. I will then consider it dead. I feel compelled to give input - because I value the community here, and don’t want the situation to remain foggy.

As a host, I feel starting an investigation was the proper thing to do, especially to protect the integrity of the game.

Below are just some of the decks, from multiple hosts. I tossed 5 decks, and the other hosts tossed multiple decks as well.

All cards were checked face down, for anything that obviously jumped out... Quick identification, not heavy scrutiny.

Once all suspicious cards were identified, we turned them over, hoping to find nothing special (we wanted to be wrong)

Old pics I had to dig up from old texts, there were more but they’ve been cleared from my iCloud:

Below is our last conversation in text. Please read it again, and understand this will be our final discussion.

Should you feel the need to continue calling or texting other players (they tell me) - that’s on you. I had to block your number, so any phone calls you kept sending my way stopped. However, here you are, again…. In my life……. On PCF…….. Your first day posting.

So as far as we are concerned, you walk that way, I’ll walk this way, and we never speak again.

Good day.

 

[upNdown]

This right here.

The OP seems to have a complete lack of incite if he really isn’t a cheat.

To claim to come here and not want drama, is either a lie, or he is literally not quite right in the head.

Who in their right mind would think it would be a good idea to come on this forum as a brand new member and then start a drama fest against a long time and very respected member of the community.

If you truly joined for chipping, then why not start a thread there. Nope. Just a bold tag line in the welcome section.

I just have a hard time believing the OP’s claims. It’s like he believes we live in a shoebox.

Smoke is the metaphor to begin an investigation. It is absolutely the basic evidence. If he doesn’t understand this, again, either missing something upstairs, or is a cheat.

The more I follow this thread, the more I believe he isn’t missing something upstairs.

I don’t know why people have wasted pages arguing about WHY he’s here. Of course he’s here because he’s pissed at Lou! 100%!
Whether or not he’s a cheater, who knows? But yeah, he might have won more friends if he’d been honest about his motivations from the start.

 

[KHarp1]

I feel cheapened because I "welcomed" him in his introduction thread. I guess part of that is on me because I troll the introduction posts as a way to boost my post count, so, in a sense I'm being disingenuous. I'm going to need therapy.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Almost everything on the internet has almost nothing to do with any of us. Does not mean we don’t or shouldn’t participate if we choose to.

In any case, apply your logic to the OP. If it all is none of our business, why post about the situation at all? Or about anything really?

Was joke, friend. re: smiley. He's also in that category.

 

[Rieguy]

Spoiler: Time to upgrade?

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

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Spoiler: Time to upgrade?

View attachment 1161681

I love most cards and love trying new ones, but WOW I hate those cards. Goofy.

 

[TheOffalo]

I feel cheapened because I "welcomed" him in his introduction thread. I guess part of that is on me because I troll the introduction posts as a way to boost my post count, so, in a sense I'm being disingenuous. I'm going to need therapy.

I love most cards and love trying new ones, but WOW I hate those cards. Goofy.

They’re Copag “Magnum” index:

 

[Mick]

What is this pic showing? So I know what to watch for.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

They’re Copag “Magnum” index:
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I know, I've peeped them but really can't imagine ever using them. I think I would consider using them if not for the little suit. If you're going huge, go all the way, don't give me a lil club next to the huge club.

 

[Taghkanic]

I don’t know why people have wasted pages arguing about WHY he’s here. Of course he’s here because he’s pissed at Lou! 100%!

Because he denied that obvious interpretation.