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Home Game Cheating (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter doublebooyah85
- Start date
I’d be willing to bet there is more to this story…
So let’s hear the whole story. So far, we’ve heard from both sides, and at least in my opinion the person being accused of cheating seems to have a good case. I haven’t heard or seen any compelling evidence on the other side, despite someone’s attempt.
I agree, but its not my story to tell and I've got no skin in the game. I'm fine with the benefit of the doubt going to the accused, of course, but we're getting momentum with harsh words. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything, that's on me, I just wanted to slow momentum cause I know we get crazy here pretty quickly.
You're right that the random screenshot was trash and I called it out, silliness.
Colquhoun
4 of a Kind
And “the accused” joins here yesterday posting about being ousted from a game, so I took him on his word. But seeing he joined yesterday knowing the host is another PCF member is just fuel for a big drama.
What a mess.
I noticed the new member. This didn't raise suspicion to me. Finding out on this thread that the host is a member, here, does raise some interesting questions.
Hopefully, we get the host's story and we can have a discussion about it. I am very curious about this.
louBdub
4 of a Kind
Gentlemen,
It has been suggested that I provide some color to the conversation. Context matters, and there is always more to the story when it comes to the internet.
As I grow older, I am more able to walk away and ignore. However, when a club that I’ve put an insane amount of energy into is discussed, I feel it necessary to get involved.
Especially when a picture is posted at my table, my wife’s license plate (not ok with that), and this negative energy clouding around it all…
Context:
I run a pretty tight club where we have 24 players & 5 host tables (6th coming soon) with consistent weekly games. Tournaments, cash, heads up, and so on.
I’ll keep this simple so it doesn’t feel like a rant. I don’t want it to be. Probably will be…
• Bryant was studied for 3 weeks straight once things smelled funny. All hosts & some of the best players we have, dialed in. One of them is a literal human calculator. As in, he actually says things like “you have 37.98 odds…”
• We calculated the odds of all the big hands he dealt himself, and it was astronomical. It was consistent nuts, versus the 2nd, 3rd, and always rivered. This is called “the duke” (I hate that I know this now, but we did our homework)
• We use all in tokens. Something lucky or fun. His was a medallion, mirror finish. Looking back, and doing a bunch of research, I now know this as a “shiner” - something to peek at cards with as you slide them over.
• Bryant told me directly, he’s done card magic his entire life. Not a few months as he posted. My exact reply, “that’s a weird thing to tell a bunch of people at a poker table”
• Bryant only won big hands when he dealt. This was data we needed, and studied.
• All hosts inspected their decks, I’d say 80% of every single A/K/Q had “tick” notches in the side. All big hands he won…. He had the Ace, others had the K/Q version.
• I conducted an experiment and dealt an entire tournament, removing the deck from his hands. I even told the other hosts I wanted him to WIN or at a minimum continue playing the way he has. This was a Hail Mary for us to be WRONG. I rooted for him. But… No deck in his hand, and a NEW deck at that… He fell flat and was first out. Was also dead silent the entire game - not normal at all.
We absolutely wanted to avoid this. I had about half my group approach me speaking on it. I kept the pitchforks at bay, and started the eyes on approach. Some of us in our group are pretty savvy when it comes to approaching these situations [Narcotics Detective, Military Special Operations, and a few players with 20+ yrs poker experience] - I say this to simply give validity to those of us doing the homework.
We played devils advocate. We tried to let it sort out. But the above merely scratches the surface on a large list of situations that just didn’t add up.
In the end, the club was uncomfortable playing with him, and I made a decision, to protect the club, the vibe, the fun poker, and to tell Bryant it’s best that we part ways as the club doesn’t want to play cards if he’s at the table. I’m not gonna torch my club over one player who had a mountain of things piled against him.
Sorry for the rant,
Lou
It has been suggested that I provide some color to the conversation. Context matters, and there is always more to the story when it comes to the internet.
As I grow older, I am more able to walk away and ignore. However, when a club that I’ve put an insane amount of energy into is discussed, I feel it necessary to get involved.
Especially when a picture is posted at my table, my wife’s license plate (not ok with that), and this negative energy clouding around it all…
Context:
I run a pretty tight club where we have 24 players & 5 host tables (6th coming soon) with consistent weekly games. Tournaments, cash, heads up, and so on.
I’ll keep this simple so it doesn’t feel like a rant. I don’t want it to be. Probably will be…
• Bryant was studied for 3 weeks straight once things smelled funny. All hosts & some of the best players we have, dialed in. One of them is a literal human calculator. As in, he actually says things like “you have 37.98 odds…”
• We calculated the odds of all the big hands he dealt himself, and it was astronomical. It was consistent nuts, versus the 2nd, 3rd, and always rivered. This is called “the duke” (I hate that I know this now, but we did our homework)
• We use all in tokens. Something lucky or fun. His was a medallion, mirror finish. Looking back, and doing a bunch of research, I now know this as a “shiner” - something to peek at cards with as you slide them over.
• Bryant told me directly, he’s done card magic his entire life. Not a few months as he posted. My exact reply, “that’s a weird thing to tell a bunch of people at a poker table”
• Bryant only won big hands when he dealt. This was data we needed, and studied.
• All hosts inspected their decks, I’d say 80% of every single A/K/Q had “tick” notches in the side. All big hands he won…. He had the Ace, others had the K/Q version.
• I conducted an experiment and dealt an entire tournament, removing the deck from his hands. I even told the other hosts I wanted him to WIN or at a minimum continue playing the way he has. This was a Hail Mary for us to be WRONG. I rooted for him. But… No deck in his hand, and a NEW deck at that… He fell flat and was first out. Was also dead silent the entire game - not normal at all.
We absolutely wanted to avoid this. I had about half my group approach me speaking on it. I kept the pitchforks at bay, and started the eyes on approach. Some of us in our group are pretty savvy when it comes to approaching these situations [Narcotics Detective, Military Special Operations, and a few players with 20+ yrs poker experience] - I say this to simply give validity to those of us doing the homework.
We played devils advocate. We tried to let it sort out. But the above merely scratches the surface on a large list of situations that just didn’t add up.
In the end, the club was uncomfortable playing with him, and I made a decision, to protect the club, the vibe, the fun poker, and to tell Bryant it’s best that we part ways as the club doesn’t want to play cards if he’s at the table. I’m not gonna torch my club over one player who had a mountain of things piled against him.
Sorry for the rant,
Lou
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I only just realized that this game was with other PCFers, and that the poster is a brand new member.
Sounds like a lot more due diligence was done by the game before they acted, much more than the OP indicated.
I’ll leave my prior comments intact to preserve the record, but would like to retract much of what I said about the investigation. If there are others from that game maybe they will chime in for added perspective.
Sounds like a lot more due diligence was done by the game before they acted, much more than the OP indicated.
I’ll leave my prior comments intact to preserve the record, but would like to retract much of what I said about the investigation. If there are others from that game maybe they will chime in for added perspective.
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JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
This sounds like sour grapes and sore loserism to me. (Perhaps because the stakes were uncomfortable?)
They can't provide any response or proof? "Some cards were marked?". Yeah, unfortunately I am learning right now that copags are prone to thumbnail dings.
Glad you are working on your own home setup. If you invite players from the other game let them know you believe you were banned for winning. (An honestly $1000 swing at 1/2 is high but not that unusual where one should presume cheating.)
If they are uncomfortable with the magic thing, offer that you won't handle the deck when it's your turn to shiffle or deal.
Will look forward to more about your setup
I am leaving my original comment in tact as well, but I appreciate that @louBdub added some color to the situation that indicates I was hasty on taking the first post at face value.
I think my comments were fine for what I know at the time and were based largely on the assumption that the group was keeping the reason secret.
Obviously not only is there reason to doubt that, but the reasons are now known and I can understand the pattern that led to the decision. If there is anything incorrect about what @louBdub said then Bryant can refute it, but at least it's clearly not secretive anymore. (If it ever were.)
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BryantRC
3 of a Kind
No lol! I bought some Claysmith Mints for my tournament set and some Milanos for my cash set.Great that you were able to turn it around after that shitty experience. Hopefully those aren’t the chips you bought with your winnings though
Colquhoun
4 of a Kind
Ahh....a true chipper...after all that has transpired, to take it off-topic like this.
Nothing else to offer?
Idk when I see stuff like this, I always feel like maybe there is more to the story. I have questions that I'd like to get a sense of which direction to go. I like to be open minded.
Here is what I looked at ...
Joined yesterday...
of all the posts on the site
commented on two posts
didn't seem to bring it, until it was a brought up.
Here is what I looked at ...
Joined yesterday...
of all the posts on the site
commented on two posts
didn't seem to bring it, until it was a brought up.
OP
OP
FWIW a license plate is public and there’s no problem sharing them tbh. You can’t do anything with it. You can’t look it up and get any data with it etc.
However I think @louBdub has handled this situation well as well as the new member. Sticky situation to be in for both members. But your house your rules!
I’m always more cautious of the host being the cheater, not a mechanic bc I feel like I could spot that easily (manipulating the deck). I also toyed w magic in middle school and know a few tricks myself
Sounds like Lou did his best to avoid kicking him out, and ultimately decided on it. Again his house his rules.
Hire dealers to avoid this!
Not sure one tourney is a fair representation for him not performing well but you provided several other examples that made you and your friends uncomfortable.
That’s what this thread was for!
However I think @louBdub has handled this situation well as well as the new member. Sticky situation to be in for both members. But your house your rules!
I’m always more cautious of the host being the cheater, not a mechanic bc I feel like I could spot that easily (manipulating the deck). I also toyed w magic in middle school and know a few tricks myself
Sounds like Lou did his best to avoid kicking him out, and ultimately decided on it. Again his house his rules.
Hire dealers to avoid this!
Not sure one tourney is a fair representation for him not performing well but you provided several other examples that made you and your friends uncomfortable.
That’s what this thread was for!
No good, low down, mustard roulettin', rivers frac'n, the baller that I am, cheating son of a bitch!
Cheating or no cheating, there are rarely any smoking guns. Being a host myself, I would likely disinvite too based on the data presented, combined with the new guy thing.
BryantRC
3 of a Kind
I came to this forum anonymously not looking for drama and not calling anyone out. Everyone can read my first two post and see that. Within minutes of simply introducing myself @Seven2Wizard called me out for having the audacity to be here or try to continue playing poker in my hometown of 34 years. He publicly accused me of being a cheater. He has my number. We live two miles apart. He didn't have to do that. I had no choice but to respond. Now @louBdub has publicly accused me of being a cheater. I have to respond to this because his post is full of lies. Starting from the top:
* Yes, Lou runs a very tight ship as do all the host in the group. Lou especially runs a phenomenal game.
* Lou says they became suspicious of me about a month before booting me. They then launched a three week investigation before booting me. I find this timeline very hard to believe based on several long conversations Lou and I had privately during this so called three week investigation. Lets just say, if it's true, Lou deserves an Oscar.
* Lou says I was winning every hand I dealt with the nuts. Absolutely false. I rarely won with the nuts. I lost plenty of hands when dealing. I can see how it could seem that way though when you are stuck and losing to a better player. One of the host dealt all the hands himself with rotating shufflers at his game. During that 5 day sun run, I won $415 at his game. He never accused me of cheating and I am still welcome at his game. Also, I will post a picture below of my running win/loss tally. Other than the sun run towards the end, does it look like I was just steam rolling everyone and stealing their money by cheating? You can see I had some big losses during the "three week investigation" and throughout. I honestly do not believe cheating ever entered anyone's mind until that 5 day sun run and specifically the $400 buy in game that I previously mentioned. That game was ten times bigger than our normal games and I felted several of my friends including @Seven2Wizard.
* Lou says I used a "shiner" as an all in token. This is outright laughable. I'll post a picture below and you can judge for yourself. It's a dragon medallion I bought at an antique mall the first day I played with Lou's group. I didn't even know what a card topper or all in token was but Lou sent me a pic of his kraken and said I needed something like that. I was literally emulating Lou. It is not even remotely mirror reflective and it is very similar to Lou's Kraken. They are both made out of pewter. I will post a picture of Lou's Kraken also. You decide.
* Lou says I told him directly that I practiced card magic my whole life. This is an outright lie. I dabbled in it for 6 months 15 years ago. I have not practiced since. You can ask any of my friends or family outside of poker and they will confirm this. I am not a card mechanic. I am the most awkward shuffler and dealer at the table. Even if I was able to manipulate the deck while shuffling, it would be negated by the other person cutting before dealing. Every time I dealt it was with a deck someone else shuffled. I never dealt without a cut card on the bottom. Like I said, Lou runs a tight ship. @Seven2Wizard posted a picture of me holding the deck without a cut card and claimed it was evidence of me cheating while dealing. I posted the full uncropped picture which clearly showed I was shuffling and not dealing. Lou I'm sorry about your wife's tag. That was my mistake.
* Lou says I only won big hands when I dealt. This is simply not true. Lou you have cameras all over your garage. I know you know this is a lie.
* Lou says, all host inspected there decks and 80% had tick notches in the side and they were all A,K,Q, cards. This is the most troubling thing. First, I never saw any such marks. If this were true the game shoulda been stopped immediately and everyone should have been made aware. Lou are you saying we played with marked cards for three weeks? I am the only one who can know with 100% certainty that I didn't cheat. I did not cheat. That means someone else in the group is cheating. Or, worse, someone is trying to frame me. I have never been shown any pictures of marked cards. Lets see em! Btw, I am a life long nail biter. I would be unable to "tick" the edge of a card with my nails. Pics below.
* Lou claims that since I didn't win the last game when they didn't let me shuffle or deal, that means I am clearly a cheater. He also said I was first one to bust. I was 4th or 5th, maybe 3rd, but definitely not first. Again Lou, you have the video. You know this is not true. Also, the game prior to this "test" game was with the host that deals all the hands himself. I won $415 at that game.
* Finally, if for whatever reason the group had decided they wanted me out other than cheating I would have been totally fine with it. I was their guest and was only there at there invite. I totally understand booting someone for the sake of the club. But when you make accusations of cheating and you publicly attack my integrity, that is totally different. I have been falsely accused of cheating. I have been lied about and slandered. I now have to explain myself every time before I sit down at a new poker table. I welcome any "proof" or "evidence" and look forward to refuting it because I know with 100% certainty that I have never cheated in poker. To every one spectating, sorry for the drama. I did not start this. I am just responding to the accusations made by @Seven2Wizard and @louBdub. My hand was forced.
Bryant
BryantRC
3 of a Kind
One more note. I am 42 years old. If I had been "practicing magic my whole life" and was a card mechanic who was actively cheating in a card game, do you really thing I would tell everyone that at the card table???
MOISTURIZER FOR FUCKS SAKE.
They should..... Healthy hands are happy hands, mister.
wickedwonka121
Flush
50.01% I think. Hehe
So now that we have both sides out in the open and a solid discussion, here are a few of my takeaways.
1 - Would a longtime member of this forum, who runs an upstanding game with a ton of regulars, really ban someone from running well, for an alleged short period of time? To me, this doesn't quite make any sense. Seems like there is some missing info here from the banned player.
2 - OP on this topic. Just throwing this out there. Could it be that there was something off about you. Not cheating per say, but just a weird vibe given off. I'll be quite honest, the pics of your nails creep me out. Whether you dabbled in card magic years ago, or still continue to do it, don't you think this is an odd thing to discuss or tell anyone at a poker game, of all settings to discuss that? That disclosed piece of information right there would give me suspicion, and that something is off with you feeling.
3 - If these regulars are solid players, based on the info put out here, something must have happened to spark a suspicion (card magic from the get-go, or other occurances). I'm curious what that would have been. I feel like there are missing pieces of this story from the OP.
Discuss.
1 - Would a longtime member of this forum, who runs an upstanding game with a ton of regulars, really ban someone from running well, for an alleged short period of time? To me, this doesn't quite make any sense. Seems like there is some missing info here from the banned player.
2 - OP on this topic. Just throwing this out there. Could it be that there was something off about you. Not cheating per say, but just a weird vibe given off. I'll be quite honest, the pics of your nails creep me out. Whether you dabbled in card magic years ago, or still continue to do it, don't you think this is an odd thing to discuss or tell anyone at a poker game, of all settings to discuss that? That disclosed piece of information right there would give me suspicion, and that something is off with you feeling.
3 - If these regulars are solid players, based on the info put out here, something must have happened to spark a suspicion (card magic from the get-go, or other occurances). I'm curious what that would have been. I feel like there are missing pieces of this story from the OP.
Discuss.
wickedwonka121
Flush
O'Keeffe's Working Hands Hand Cream Value Size, 6.8 oz., Jar (Pack of 1) https://a.co/d/47HvJBJ
nlhenerd
Two Pair
On this point specifically (and I'm not commenting on the other stuff) -- I totally understand talking about card magic at a card game. I studied magic as a kid and was always awful at it, but I never spent so much time with a deck of cards in my life. There's a guy at my game (don't worry- we have a dedicated dealer) that told me of his history in card magic and showed me some pretty great examples of card manipulation. I had him try again with a cut which seemed to foil many of his tactics, but there were still some things he could do. There's nothing off about that guy except that he likes to get drunk and punt money.
If people are being social and there's a cue there (say, playing cards) that reminds him if a previous point in life, that seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to bring up. Especially if he lacks the awareness to know that it's a bad look to draw attention to sleight of hand skills in a money game.
I don't think his bringing up magic is a point for or against cheating.
Disclaimer: I'm only talking about the one quoted sentence. Don't you dare say I'm taking a side.
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