Home Game Upgrade Guidance Needed. (2 Viewers)

[v1pe]

I'm trying something new at my game this weekend. NLHE only until a certain cutoff time at the cash table (I put 10:30, tourney starts at 6:30 and rebuys end at 8:30) and I printed off some of Abby's cards and laminated them. After 10:30 we will do dealers choice orbit by orbit but picking only from the cards that I bring out. I plan to introduce them slowly over the evening... NLHE, PLO, Pineapple to start, PLO8, Big O added a bit later, SOHE and some of the other more complicated mixed games later still when the table gets shorter. Will see how it goes.

 

[longflop]

You mean blinds of .25-.25 and limits of .25/.50 I assume?

But yes I think that's certainly worth a try.

That's exactly what I was thinking. SB $.25, BB $.25, small bet $.25, big bet $.50. I'm sure somebody will bitch "This isn't poker man!"

 

[v1pe]

That's exactly what I was thinking. SB $.25, BB $.25, small bet $.25, big bet $.50. I'm sure somebody will bitch "This isn't poker man!"

If your group is used to playing 25c/50c NL or PL games they might be very underwhelmed by the stakes. I would recommend 50c/$1 or even 75c/$1.50 up to $1/$2 which should play similar as far as pot size. I think the recommendation is usually 4x the BB of your NL game equals the new Big Bet for the limit game. Maybe .50/$1 with a full kill would work well.

When I tried a limit game for my .05/.10 crowd we played .20/.40 with a half kill (.30/.60) and everyone was pretty underwhelmed by the action, we ended up switching too NLHE and PLO after a couple hours. It was a good intro to some of the games though, 7 stud in particular.

 

[JustinInMN]

That's exactly what I was thinking. SB $.25, BB $.25, small bet $.25, big bet $.50. I'm sure somebody will bitch "This isn't poker man!"

You might just want to put out a feeler before hand just to see if you have 4-5 interested players. If you do the. The detractors are faced with giving it a try or not playing.

 

[codeman00]

It's been awhile since I've updated anything about our game but I'd have to say things are going decent. We have a game about every 4-5 weeks but only when we can get enough people to play.

From a cash game perspective, everyone does use the list now without many complaints in wanting to play a different game, etc. After the tournament, cash usually starts out with a variant of Omaha8 and stays there for the rest of the night. Occasionally really late and with fewer people, we'll throw a game like 6 card holdem or Kings and Littles in for a round. Still though, a high low variant of Omaha/BigO is the main game all night long. We've talked a bit about putting in a version of Pineapple on the list and I think that will probably happen before our next game.

The only problem we seem to have now is lack of players although I guess its always been a continuous problem. A few players have moved away or can't play due to other obligations... Others will show up and play one night but make it apparent that Hi/Low games have no skill involved, everyone has a draw and its all luck, etc, and that they pretty much hate it. They don't show up consistently (only upon special urging) and their reasons are apparent.

Another issue we have is for some players, is that they still have very little loss tolerance...if they lose their $40 buy in quick, then they might quit or sit out for stretches. This is not an issue if we start out with 10 players for cash but when we start out at 7 players and both of the hosts are literally sitting out of the game at their own house, then that's a problem. A really awkward problem! We have diehards that will play all night long every night. But many times, the game's longevity and fun depends on how long the others can ride out that first buyin.

I keep hearing of other people that have 20-30 or more players in their player pool but we just can't seem to find more than 10-12 at a time and only 6-7 of those are the diehard players.

 

[TheOctagon]

Others will show up and play one night but make it apparent that Hi/Low games have no skill involved, everyone has a draw and its all luck, etc, and that they pretty much hate it.

Wait, they’re asserting their displeasure with the format by using that line as a rationale? More variance, maybe, but no skill? That’s a stretch.

If you have people who can’t spend $40 (with a chance to win money, no less) your stakes are too high. Also if your hosts are sitting out of their own games after a $40 drop, I got news: they shouldn’t be hosting games. You have to be the life of the party sometimes. I totally get it if you’re slammed four buy ins, ok just be the dealer for a while and maybe get some side bets going, but keep people playing and in the game!

On one hand, I’m happy you have a reasonably regular game going. On the other it sounds like you’re still lacking quality players. You’ll get there! I’m rooting for you.

 

[CraigT78]

It's been awhile since I've updated anything about our game but I'd have to say things are going decent. We have a game about every 4-5 weeks but only when we can get enough people to play.

From a cash game perspective, everyone does use the list now without many complaints in wanting to play a different game, etc. After the tournament, cash usually starts out with a variant of Omaha8 and stays there for the rest of the night. Occasionally really late and with fewer people, we'll throw a game like 6 card holdem or Kings and Littles in for a round. Still though, a high low variant of Omaha/BigO is the main game all night long. We've talked a bit about putting in a version of Pineapple on the list and I think that will probably happen before our next game.

The only problem we seem to have now is lack of players although I guess its always been a continuous problem. A few players have moved away or can't play due to other obligations... Others will show up and play one night but make it apparent that Hi/Low games have no skill involved, everyone has a draw and its all luck, etc, and that they pretty much hate it. They don't show up consistently (only upon special urging) and their reasons are apparent.

Another issue we have is for some players, is that they still have very little loss tolerance...if they lose their $40 buy in quick, then they might quit or sit out for stretches. This is not an issue if we start out with 10 players for cash but when we start out at 7 players and both of the hosts are literally sitting out of the game at their own house, then that's a problem. A really awkward problem! We have diehards that will play all night long every night. But many times, the game's longevity and fun depends on how long the others can ride out that first buyin.

I keep hearing of other people that have 20-30 or more players in their player pool but we just can't seem to find more than 10-12 at a time and only 6-7 of those are the diehard players.

Sounds like maybe you might want to try limit games. A few of my players who are risk averse (Don't care to lose $200 in one hand) LOVE limit poker. Might want to give that a shot. Harder to bluff a player off a hand, but a buy-in lasts much longer, even if you are a total donk.

 

[Beakertwang]

Sounds like maybe you might want to try limit games. A few of my players who are risk averse (Don't care to lose $200 in one hand) LOVE limit poker. Might want to give that a shot. Harder to bluff a player off a hand, but a buy-in lasts much longer, even if you are a total donk.

I would hate to play limit hold'em, or even Omaha. But the split pot, double board, circus game stuff is really social and fun. If you want huge pots and lots of gambol, they're not for you. However, if you want a table full of engaged players trying to figure out what draws to chase so as to suck out on their opponents, they're a hoot.

 

[CraigT78]

I would hate to play limit hold'em, or even Omaha.

Fair point - and agree. Hard no on Limit hold Em - Omaha I could do if the limit was high enough (5/10+)

 

[detroitdad]

Fair point - and agree. Hard no on Limit hold Em - Omaha I could do if the limit was high enough (5/10+)

I still don't think I could.

 

[SeanGecko]

I love some limit stud or Omaha hi-lo.

 

[v1pe]

I would hate to play limit hold'em, or even Omaha. But the split pot, double board, circus game stuff is really social and fun. If you want huge pots and lots of gambol, they're not for you. However, if you want a table full of engaged players trying to figure out what draws to chase so as to suck out on their opponents, they're a hoot.

Really? The circus games in my group get ridiculous as compared to hold em. Generally bigger pots and lots of gambol as everyone is chasing.

 

[Beakertwang]

Really? The circus games in my group get ridiculous as compared to hold em. Generally bigger pots and lots of gambol as everyone is chasing.

I just meant limit makes it hard to get stacks in.

 

[TheOctagon]

I just meant limit makes it hard to get stacks in.

Bit of a catch 22. If OP's crowd is upset after shipping $40 what the hell is the point of playing a game that afford people the chance to get drawn out on for their bankroll? Limit may be a slower burn, but you're going to have a better time overall.

Can't have it both ways with this crowd, I'm afraid.

 

[TheOctagon]

Not to mention you shouldn't really be playing no limit circus games anyway - the pros don't even play anything higher than limit 2-7 triple draw, badugi/badacey/badeucey, etc. They get action because they're not solved and the strategies are less apparent (but there are still strategies!)

 

[v1pe]

I just meant limit makes it hard to get stacks in.

Ahh gotcha, my group plays 1/1 nl regardless of game...

 

[Beakertwang]

Bit of a catch 22. If OP's crowd is upset after shipping $40 what the hell is the point of playing a game that afford people the chance to get drawn out on for their bankroll? Limit may be a slower burn, but you're going to have a better time overall.

Can't have it both ways with this crowd, I'm afraid.

You certainly can play a lot of .50/1 limit circus games for $40, but I know some would complain about the games being stupid, etc. I introduced some limit games to my family for low stakes. At first they balked, like the games are stupid, but after a couple orbits, everyone was having fun. I suspect that reviews will be mixed with most NLHE crowds.

 

[detroitdad]

You probably shouldn't introduce 3-2-1 hi/lo to the group

 

[TheOctagon]

At first they balked, like the games are stupid, but after a couple orbits, everyone was having fun. I suspect that reviews will be mixed with most NLHE crowds.

Not a dig on your game at all, so let me get that out there first.

I could have this discussion about NLHE and why most people shouldn't be playing it. Simply put: most people, especially those with incredibly limited bankrolls and no stomach for losses, shouldn't be putting themselves in situations where they can end their night early and then have the gall to get upset about it and walk out on a game.

NLHE and the big name TV era made a lot of inadequate players think the only way to have fun at a poker table is by 'living dangerously'. Go play blackjack and hit your 18s and split your 10s if you want to live on the edge

 

[PaulsonCollector]

I say in general a Limit Game is better for a friendly neighbourhood game. If the game isn't about the money, but about social aspects, just do it. It's no fun to loose your entire bankroll on a single bad beat. If you want the thrill of fearing about your entire stack every hand, do so, but don't complain about other players leaving early because they run out of money fast.

 

[bsdunbar1]

Sounds like maybe you might want to try limit games. a buy-in lasts much longer, even if you are a total donk.

Shit I need to be playing Limit poker!

 

[codeman00]

There's a lot of great responses here for sure.

This has a been a long long journey of power struggle and discussions with our poker group about real poker vs circus poker etc and what all of us want poker night to be (which is all different things). We started out by playing an uncontrolled game where any game was fair game, rules were always messed up, people could play cash from their pocket…basically the wild wild west. That scared off anyone that was accustomed to playing a correct game while it also scared beginning players to the horizons because even I couldn’t figure out how to play some of the games. We spent most of the night arguing about what set of rules and playing games that took 15 min per hand and I got really frustrated with it. At the same time, I was playing more at the casino and at another game where I begin to understand the proper poker rules and game structure.

I then posted this thread for help and things improved dramatically. I created a game list and left only more pure traditional casino poker games on the list. I started enforcing only cash on the table plays and other rules. We tried a mixed game limit night ($1/$2) which bored everyone to tears. We tried the No Limit mixed game night ($0.25/$0.25) and everyone agreed that it was much better and that’s where we settled. We started out at $20 buyins which most soon found wasn’t really enough so we moved it to $40 (although some newbies or skittish ones still buy in at $20). And we all decided to move to $0.25/$0.50 also.

The hosts (2 players) were chosen because they have a perfect setup and I noticed when I had it at my house, they were more likely to leave early due to not drinking because they had to drive home. When we had it at their house, they were there until our normal quitting time of 2-3AM. They don’t have carpet either so spills weren’t an issue like they were at my house. So we started playing at their house almost exclusively….otherwise we had 2 players that would not keep the game going late. However, as we changed to $40 buy in NL, they also happen to be the ones that get frustrated after a $25 tourney loss +$40 first buy in loss.

So everyone is correct that we need more bigger players. I personally can’t back down in buyins or blinds anymore. I really lose interest playing poker at lower stakes…its tough enough moving back from $1/$3NL to $0.25/$0.50NL but to go back to limit or $20 buy ins might as well just be playing play money. Spending 9 hours with a chance of winning $15 is not fun to me. And I guess our real problem is trying to find new players so we can always start cash with 10-11 players which negates the player fallout and gets us to 2-3AM without issue. The problem is starting with only 7-8 players and then early cash fallout happening.

 

[TheOctagon]

Sounds like you should stop trying to chew through this wall and go find yourself a game you enjoy and let these guys handle their own fun at their own stakes. I still can't believe the hosts get flustered over a $40 buy in. It's like ... you're hosting the game, bud. You probably already put some coin into having the equipment, the food/drinks, just having enough toilet paper to around. If you're tapped after all that, maybe poker isn't your game.

 

[TheOctagon]

Could also be your schedule. You're saying you want to break at 3am. I haven't stayed up until 3am in god knows how long and that's when I wasn't trying to concentrate on a poker game for 8 hours. How about try a Sunday afternoon or shoot for bank holidays - those are roughly 5-6 weeks apart and you might catch more people who are happy to stick around longer. If you're starting your tournament at 7, dudes are going to get exhausted after drinking and focusing for hours. No surprise they're ready to go home - the loss excuse might even just be cover for "I'm tired, guys, I got a 3 year old who's going to wake up in 2 hours and I have a 30 min drive ahead of me".

 

[Old State]

NLHE and the big name TV era made a lot of inadequate players think the only way to have fun at a poker table is by 'living dangerously'. Go play blackjack and hit your 18s and split your 10s if you want to live on the edge

Hallelujah! Amen! TV poker was needed to transform the image of the game from seedy to respectabile, but it’s inaccurate presentation (in the early years) that NLHE was norm amounted to basically a 8 year sugar rush. Now that the sugar rush is spent poker has been has begun the inevitable sugar crash.

As I’ve said dozens of times, it never ceases to amaze me that people that used to get excited for limit poker and play often and for hours on end suddenly, almost over night, found the game “boring”. I’m convinced there is a ton of machismo baked in that as well. Many people simply feel they must hate on limit because it’s not what the real gamblers play (which is a myth)...whether they admit that or not.

NLHE is very unhealthy for maintaining a regular poker game especially with risk adverse or new and low skilled players. The unfortunate reality is that most have been so brainwashed by TV poker culture they would rather play NLHE once a month or longer... then sit out after they lose their first buyin. It’s sad and I don’t know how to change it...unless TV starts showing pros playing limit

 

[codeman00]

This started out as game that me and a friend organized for people at work so I kind of feel committed to hosting it even though it’s not at my house. I still do the chips, timing, format, etc while others do the money, food, etc. But I have evolved into a more serious (better) player during this time along with a few others but many of the others haven’t. We’ve lost several players over the last 5 years and have added on players from outside of work. It’s actually turned into a decently fun game (for me) now that everything is standardized. It was a mess of chaos before.

You’ve brought up some great points about the late schedule, etc and quitting might be an excuse for being tired. Interesting. I’m a diehard and sometimes I forget that others aren’t as into as I am. My thought is that we only play this game once every 5 weeks, why not play until 3AM to make the most of it? But everyone else isn’t on the same page.

All that being said, I’m going to try to keep the game going by finding some new players (which seems to be easy for most people) but not for this game. As far as the players losing $40 and quitting, I’m not sure what to do about that. As a natural reaction, I started studying the game so I wouldn’t lose $40. Other players just keep losing $40 and get frustrated. Poker is challenging dynamic trying to keep all kinds of people happy in a game where skill levels are different and real money is won or lost. The game evolves and some of the players evolve. I just wish I had several options/places to play like seemingly everyone I meet does. Not so much in my area, but we’re on the search for other players!

 

[TheOctagon]

I’m convinced there is a ton of machismo baked in that as well

If you had to compare the formats to sports limit is like baseball. It's methodical, technical, precision-oriented, and huge swings (PUN INTENDED! ) are rare but possible.

NLHE is mixed martial arts. It's fast, it's brutal, if you're overmatched you're totally boned, and you can get knocked out in the first 30 seconds or you can go the distance and end up no better off than when you started.

Guys with inferiority complexes and a chip on their shoulder (two puns! I got two puns here!) gravitate toward the latter. Guys without security issues tend to play the game they can beat and walk away quiet winners.

 

[TheOctagon]

unless TV starts showing pros playing limit

They stream a ton of the final tables of the lesser known formats on pokergo for the WSOP. That... isn't exactly TV, but it's a start!

 

[TheOctagon]

As far as the players losing $40 and quitting, I’m not sure what to do about that.

Tournaments are easy: Bounties, big hand bonus pots.

Cash games: big hand bonus pots/bad beats (they can carry over from game to game, so if nobody gets the qualifying hand you keep the pot rolling - once it's up to several $100s take a poll of how many clowns are still there at 3am salivating for that straight flush against the quad 10s).

 

[Old State]

They stream a ton of the final tables of the lesser known formats on pokergo for the WSOP. That... isn't exactly TV, but it's a start!

I said this in another post or thread, but they need to make a movie about this. The biggest poker games every played and they were all limit. A story almost to crazy to be true.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Professor,_the_Banker,_and_the_Suicide_King