Home game tipping (2 Viewers)

[BGinGA]

I would consider all of those non-raked. You’re paying for dealer services.

I would also say a jackpot that goes back to the players is not a rake. That’s why it’s called a jackpot or promo funds etc. However, when casino always carries a balance that’s more of a rake, but if the home game pays it out all out after the night…no rake. If he carries it idk what I call it. Probably still just a jackpot pool bc it’s going to be so minimal.

#4 is if a player doesn’t tip, would he/she get get an invite back? It’s not that simple. Is he/she a lot of fun and an action player? Then yes they r invited back (but those players usually tip well anyway lol). Or if I needed a player I may still reach out to them.

However if you want to consider it rake, go ahead. I understand your viewpoint I just disagree.

I really value a dealer and can understand how a rake can hurt a game so to me they’re completely different. Having a dealer isn’t going to hurt a game like a rake could.

When we discuss rake we really want to discuss how much is the rake, and is it preventing from the game being profitable or sustainable. I don’t want to mix in the dealer into that discussion.

I lose money on my home game when I host. I provide some very good drinks food snacks and a very nice space. Let alone the poker supplies. My dealer makes money from dealing. No way someone is going to call my game a raked game without me correcting them. And if they keep calling it raked I’d give them an earful and not invite them back.

But on this forum…I enjoy a good discussion.

I want to watch when you give the arresting officer an earful.

 

[Taghkanic]

I want to watch when you give the arresting officer an earful.

I’d say the chances of being raided are so low as to be nearly the same as non-existent, unless you’re running 3+ tables 2+ times weekly, running a book, and living in a congested suburban neighborhood or high-crime city where neighbors and cops are more likely to notice/care.

The only private or home game within an hour’s drive of me to get raided was:

* In the State Capitol, a bigger city with a lot of crime;

* Running a book (extending credit and charging vig);

* Got robbed twice at gunpoint;

* Was heavily raked; and

* Had a terrible reputation related to dealer collusion, hosts setting decks, not always paying winners, etc.

I never played there for all of the above reasons. I likewise don’t worry about being raided because my home game’s description doesn’t match any of those things.

Anything’s possible, of course. I could get hit by lightning, but I still go outside.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I want to watch when you give the arresting officer an earful.

Haha I would! And he usually sits in seat 7!

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Good God, we have the same exact conversation so many times.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I’d say the chances of being raided are so low as to be nearly the same as non-existent, unless you’re running 3+ tables 2+ times weekly, running a book, and living in a congested suburban neighborhood or high-crime city where neighbors and cops are more likely to notice/care.

The only private or home game within an hour’s drive of me to get raided was:

* In the State Capitol, a bigger city with a lot of crime;

* Running a book (extending credit and charging vig);

* Got robbed twice at gunpoint;

* Was heavily raked; and

* Had a terrible reputation related to dealer collusion, hosts setting decks, not always paying winners, etc.

I never played there for all of the above reasons. I likewise don’t worry about being raided because my home game’s description doesn’t match any of those things.

Anything’s possible, of course. I could get hit by lightening, but I still go outside.

You must not remember the PCFer in Virginia whose home game got raided. I'd dig that thread back up, but it's very distressing to me.

Here in Tennessee games get raided, including a VFW hall. Another game was raided for holding a $20 tournament. No book, unknown if there was a "rake" (how much can you rake a $20 tourney), just the police protecting the people. According the a Chattanooga investigator, "unregulated gambling takes place in the shadows, which sometimes draws a bad element. When people engage in illegal activity of any kind, they tend to lose the normal protections of society. Such people are less likely to go to the police when robbed or cheated, so they have less protection than they should."

So you see, the police are cracking down on us for our own good.

 

[Taghkanic]

You must not remember the PCFer in Virginia whose home game got raided. I'd dig that thread back up, but it's very distressing to me.

Here in Tennessee games get raided, including a VFW hall. Another game was raided for holding a $20 tournament. No book, unknown if there was a "rake" (how much can you rake a $20 tourney), just the police protecting the people. According the a Chattanooga investigator, "unregulated gambling takes place in the shadows, which sometimes draws a bad element. When people engage in illegal activity of any kind, they tend to lose the normal protections of society. Such people are less likely to go to the police when robbed or cheated, so they have less protection than they should."

So you see, the police are cracking down on us for our own good.

I remember that raid. Not the details of what type and location of game it was.

But that’s what’s known in medical/ statistical research as a Series of One.

My great-grandfather smoked, and lived 99 years. Doesn’t tell anyone anything about the safety of smoking. Might tell you something about his genetics, or just dumb luck. But not a basis for any decision.

And if among the thousands of PCFers hosting there has been one raid… I like those odds.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I remember that raid. Not the details of what type and location of game it was.

But that’s what’s known in medical/ statistical research as a Series of One.

My great-grandfather smoked, and lived 99 years. Doesn’t tell anyone anything about the safety of smoking. Might tell you something about his genetics, or just dumb luck. But not a basis for any decision.

And if among the thousands of PCFers hosting there has been one raid… I like those odds.

That is why I still host. I'm playing the odds, trying to fly below the radar, and stay out of everyone's airspace. Low dollar, low profile.

 

[merkong]

Bring in a masseuse. Then the tipping will happen and we’ll have something more fun to discuss.

 

[Budha]

When I say "very illegal," I'm referring to both (1) the aggressiveness of enforcement (VA police have historically been known to bust games), and (2) the penalties, which can be severe. A home game that isn't structured for profit is legal here (i.e. not raked). I think just playing in a raked game is a misdemeanor (but like I said, many Federal workers will turn away just because of that). Running a raked game is a felony, and the penalty can be up to 10 years depending on how much money they take in.



I agree it's "effectively" raked from a player's perspective. The house brings in a lot in the game I play from these split tips.

From a legal perspective... I have to think it's gray area. I've read the exact language of the law. I'm not going to debate it since I'm not a lawyer and I suspect none of you are lawyers in VA either.

I am curious if you guys think this is fundamentally different from a player who tips the house at the end of the night. I ran a game a few times and several players did this and I didn't expect it at ALL.

For an otherwise unpaid dealer, yes. And if the host is providing food and drink, I think a tip for them is generally warranted as well, depending on circumstances.

I’m from VA (until 5 yrs ago anyway) and I’ve honestly never heard of a game getting busted. As you said, poker is not illegal in VA, only hosting a raked game. Even then, you kinda have to be asking for it to get busted TBH. It’s just not a “thing” they are actively seeking out IME.

 

[Coyote]

I repeat my #65 post for those who may find it useful, and I 'm out. Different priorities and tastes.

For HOME GAMES ONLY:

A friend as dedicated dealer should get tipped by winners (or anybody) upon cash-out.

A professional dealer should be paid strictly by the hour. The host could either kindly ask, or demand, the guests' contribution - depending on local laws. Extra remuneration in the form of tips would be OK, but only upon cash-out.

Absolutely NO raking of pots in home games.

My2c.

And NO "voluntary" tips in the form of chips, during play.

 

[Taghkanic]

I repeat my #65 post for those who may find it useful, and I 'm out. Different priorities and tastes.


And NO "voluntary" tips in the form of chips, during play.

It would be helpful hear to some actual arguments to back up the above, which otherwise are just opinions masquerading as rules…

For example:

What is the legal, ethical or practical difference between players tipping an amount of their choice when they win a hand* vs. people tipping at the end of the game?

(My sense is that people would tip a lot less if it is left to the end.)


——-
* I have actually seen people tip when they lose a big hand, usually as a joke when they got one-outed on the river or something

 

[DMoogle]

What is the legal, ethical or practical difference between players tipping an amount of their choice when they win a hand* vs. people tipping at the end of the game?

Legal: I can't imagine there's a difference.
Ethical: None?
Practical: Many. People that tip after a game are ABSOLUTELY going to tip less in aggregate, and it's not even close.

Worth noting that many professional dealers aren't going to deal unless they make good tips. I live in an area with multiple poker rooms 1 hour away, and the best dealers there can make upward of $50/hour in cash tips, plus benefits. Home games don't have other benefits and carry additional risk, so they need to be appropriately incentivized to deal. One dealer told me they aim for $100/hour when dealing home games.

I know of a dealer that refused to deal a specific home game because they weren't getting tipped enough (and I know for sure the tips were better than your average game in a public room).

 

[Poker Zombie]

What is the legal, ethical or practical difference between players tipping an amount of their choice when they win a hand* vs. people tipping at the end of the game?

(My sense is that people would tip a lot less if it is left to the end.)

I will give you a hypothetical.

Player A wins a big hand. A real monster, like $1000 in a $100 buy-in game. Tips his dealer 1/2 the pot. He is up significantly, even with the generous tip.

If Player A is also the spouse of the dealer, is this not akin to going south?

 

[doublebooyah85]

I will give you a hypothetical.

Player A wins a big hand. A real monster, like $1000 in a $100 buy-in game. Tips his dealer 1/2 the pot. He is up significantly, even with the generous tip.

If Player A is also the spouse of the dealer, is this not akin to going south?

Haha for sure. This would be blatantly called out.

 

[upNdown]

I should just butt out of this entirely, since it’s become increasingly clear that my brand of .25/.50 poker is irrelevant here. But it occurs to me that maybe we should have a separate category for home games with a dealer.

Most PCFers are pretty comfortable saying that a home game is different from a private or underground game that takes a for-profit rake. But I feel like a home game with a paid and tipped dealer might be a third category. I’ve played in games like this. I appreciate the convenience. I don’t like paying for that convenience through tips, but I wouldn’t grumble about it either - it’s a minor complaint. But it is something fairly different from the zero-sum social game played at my house. If $1200 goes on to the table at my house, $1200 is paid out at the end of the night. At these dealt games, whether there’s a rake for the dealer or tipping or both, some significant amount of money (likely exceeding a buy-in) is disappearing from the table. That’s different.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Haha for sure. This would be blatantly called out.

If not the dealers card manipulation skills questioned, I'm sure. Point being that ethically, money shouldn't be taken off the table. $1 or $500. Using it to cover a dealer or using it for gas money on your ride home. Money taken out of play is wrong.

I make an exception for casinos, because dealers move around, shifts end, etc. Hard to tip them at the end of the night. While in a home game, the dealer isn't going anywhere.

In a Ohio card room I have visited multiple times, because of local laws, the dealers are not allowed to take chips off the table. That would be a rake, even if paid as a tip. Instead you can buy brown "tipping" chips. Brown chips that cannot play in hands. Those chips can be given directly to the dealer as a tip, because they were never in play, and thus are not a rake. Those chips are bought directly from the cage, and can not be sold back to the cage, so you effectively "tip" at the start of the night, and divide the chips amongst dealers as you wish (you may buy more by walking back to the cage, or buying them off another player).

 

[Eriks]

One dealer told me they aim for $100/hour when dealing home games.

Gotta be pretty big stake homegames. Unless the players are very generous dumb

 

[Tonystark137]

If not the dealers card manipulation skills questioned, I'm sure. Point being that ethically, money shouldn't be taken off the table. $1 or $500. Using it to cover a dealer or using it for gas money on your ride home. Money taken out of play is wrong.

I make an exception for casinos, because dealers move around, shifts end, etc. Hard to tip them at the end of the night. While in a home game, the dealer isn't going anywhere.

In a Ohio card room I have visited multiple times, because of local laws, the dealers are not allowed to take chips off the table. That would be a rake, even if paid as a tip. Instead you can buy brown "tipping" chips. Brown chips that cannot play in hands. Those chips can be given directly to the dealer as a tip, because they were never in play, and thus are not a rake. Those chips are bought directly from the cage, and can not be sold back to the cage, so you effectively "tip" at the start of the night, and divide the chips amongst dealers as you wish (you may buy more by walking back to the cage, or buying them off another player).

So more chips huh

 

[Poker Zombie]

So more chips huh

Too bad they're not nice chips. I'd be at the cage like "I tip big... really big. Give me 22 racks."

 

[Taghkanic]

I will give you a hypothetical.

Player A wins a big hand. A real monster, like $1000 in a $100 buy-in game. Tips his dealer 1/2 the pot. He is up significantly, even with the generous tip.

If Player A is also the spouse of the dealer, is this not akin to going south?

1) Don’t have a player’s spouse deal in a game you host.

2) Don’t invite back anyone who does this

3) Don’t play in or host games where collusion and/or angling is tolerated

 

[Poker Zombie]

1) Don’t have a player’s spouse deal in a game you host.

2) Don’t invite back anyone who does this

3) Don’t play in or host games where collusion and/or angling is tolerated

What if the dealer is the host's spouse? Child? Friend?

I get that your rake for the dealer tipping is how you do things, and it works for you. You probably have a tip jar by your food, perhaps a tip jar in the restroom (that toilet paper does not reload itself), and a tip jar where your players park. I expect these things in a casino, but then again I don't have to tip in a casino.

I'd prefer to pay the dealer a wage because it was my game, my responsibility. YMMV.

 

[doublebooyah85]

What if the dealer is the host's spouse? Child? Friend?

I get that your rake for the dealer tipping is how you do things, and it works for you. You probably have a tip jar by your food, perhaps a tip jar in the restroom (that toilet paper does not reload itself), and a tip jar where your players park. I expect these things in a casino, but then again I don't have to tip in a casino.

I'd prefer to pay the dealer a wage because it was my game, my responsibility. YMMV.

What is the stakes of your game?

 

[Taghkanic]

What if the dealer is the host's spouse? Child? Friend?

I get that your rake for the dealer tipping is how you do things, and it works for you. You probably have a tip jar by your food, perhaps a tip jar in the restroom (that toilet paper does not reload itself), and a tip jar where your players park. I expect these things in a casino, but then again I don't have to tip in a casino.

I'd prefer to pay the dealer a wage because it was my game, my responsibility. YMMV.

1) I don’t have any of those things, thanks.

2) I’ve never played in a game where the host’s spouse deals, and am not making my game policy based on random hypotheticals

3) I don’t know any dealers who would agree to deal in a home game on anything but a per hand basis, b/c they aren’t going to make enough to be worth the time otherwise.

And unless the host is raking pots, paying via salary is a non-starter. Might even have worse legal implications related to wages etc. than any gambling offense.

4) Basically it still looks like there are some people who run low stakes home games who are easily freaked out by the idea of a bigger game wanting the convenience, professionalism and security of a dealer. And who then become tut-tutting church ladies about it.

Can’t help anyone with that emotional issue. But I simply would not host a 2/5+ game without a dealer, and such people expect to be tipped as the game goes on.

In any case: If players are OK with any arrangement, who from the outside should care? You’re not forced to play in any game.

 

[Poker Zombie]

1) I don’t have any of those things, thanks.

2) I’ve never played in a game where the host’s spouse deals, and am not making my game policy based on random hypotheticals

3) I don’t know any dealers who would agree to deal in a home game on anything but a per hand basis, b/c they aren’t going to make enough to be worth the time otherwise.

And unless the host is raking pots, paying via salary is a non-starter. Might even have worse legal implications related to wages etc. than any gambling offense.

4) Basically it still looks like there are some people who run low stakes home games who are easily freaked out by the idea of a bigger game wanting the convenience, professionalism and security of a dealer. And who then become tut-tutting church ladies about it.

Can’t help anyone with that emotional issue. But I simply would not host a 2/5+ game without a dealer, and such people expect to be tipped as the game goes on.

In any case: If players are OK with any arrangement, who from the outside should care? You’re not forced to play in any game.

You're the one that found a player "disrespectful" just because he didn't tip up to your expectations. Many of us just said no, he shouldn't be expected to tip to your level of expectation - most of us disagree with forced tips or simply call it a rake.

Your demand your players pay a higher salary to the dealer you employ leaves you (not us) emotional. We have no skin in the game - we're just pointing out to you that you are raking your "unraked" game, and it leaves you upset.

I don't want to upset you, but I struggle to see how you don't see a mandatory fee (one that is larger than you would tip in a casino) any time you pull a pot as anything other than a rake.

 

[Poker Zombie]

What is the stakes of your game?

Typical games are $30 tournaments with 1 rebuy max. Roughly once a year it's a cash game with up to $50 buy-in unlimited reloads. I've run a few $100 cash games with higher-variance games.

 

[doublebooyah85]

You're the one that found a player "disrespectful" just because he didn't tip up to your expectations. Many of us just said no, he shouldn't be expected to tip to your level of expectation - most of us disagree with forced tips or simply call it a rake.

I don’t agree with this recap.

Up to? Dude didn’t tip at all.

I think most agreed he should have tipped something, but end of the day it’s harmless.

And tipping isn’t forced.

@Taghkanic came across tone deaf on that thread no doubt and you are stuck on this rake is a tip subject. Even @upNdown made the clear distinction…any good dealer is going to work for tips.

I understand if your game is small, you are not going to want to tips.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Typical games are $30 tournaments with 1 rebuy max. Roughly once a year it's a cash game with up to $50 buy-in unlimited reloads. I've run a few $100 cash games with higher-variance games.

Yeah we r not talking about the same game. A dealer of quality for a game this size isn’t going to work. You need volunteers essentially. Or maybe they get a free entry.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Shut the thread down I get last word in!!! LOL

 

[Poker Zombie]

I don’t agree with this recap.

Up to? Dude didn’t tip at all.

I think most agreed he should have tipped something, but end of the day it’s harmless.

And tipping isn’t forced.

@Taghkanic came across tone deaf on that thread no doubt and you are stuck on this rake is a tip subject. Even @upNdown made the clear distinction…any good dealer is going to work for tips.

I understand if your game is small, you are not going to want to tips.

OP and post #2

But in the games I host and play in, it seems many players don’t adjust their tipping rates to reflect that the dealer is working *only* for tips.

in the games I host and play in, it seems many players don’t adjust their tipping rates to reflect that the dealer is working *only* for tips.

This guy often forgets to tip, and never tips more than $1

So in a recent home game, he scooped a nice $650 pot. I then saw him hand the dealer a $2 chip… and ask him to break it, for a $1 tip

It seemed really disrespectful, to my eyes.

He tipped. He tipped incredibly shitty. The OP found not tipping to his expectations disrespectful.

I think my summarization is accurate.

 

[doublebooyah85]

OP and post #2









He tipped. He tipped incredibly shitty. The OP found not tipping to his expectations disrespectful.

I think my summarization is accurate.

I thought we were referring to the jackpot tip out.

My mistake. I thought I said I got last word.