Home game tipping (2 Viewers)

[DMoogle]

Curious what people think of this:
I'm in VA where raked games are very illegal. Despite this, obviously many people still run games, and many recreational players still flock to those games because (1) they don't care about rake and (2) good free food, booze, etc.

I've been playing in a game that kind of does a compromise between the two. There's no rake, but there's a very high tip standard ($5/$5 game with a frequent straddle). Only $5 chips are used, and people frequently tip much more. I've seen $100 tips for pots over $3k. The host splits the tips with the dealer to be able to provide the food/drinks, although I don't know their specific arrangement.

Since the tips are "optional," the game is legal, although I know people who don't tip enough don't get invited back. Seems like a reasonable compromise. Thoughts?

 

[BGinGA]

Curious what people think of this:
I'm in VA where raked games are very illegal. Despite this, obviously many people still run games, and many recreational players still flock to those games because (1) they don't care about rake and (2) good free food, booze, etc.

I've been playing in a game that kind of does a compromise between the two. There's no rake, but there's a very high tip standard ($5/$5 game with a frequent straddle). Only $5 chips are used, and people frequently tip much more. I've seen $100 tips for pots over $3k. The host splits the tips with the dealer to be able to provide the food/drinks, although I don't know their specific arrangement.

Since the tips are "optional," the game is legal, although I know people who don't tip enough don't get invited back. Seems like a reasonable compromise. Thoughts?

In some states even tipping is illegal.

In Georgia, just playing poker is illegal, so IDGAF about rake, tips, or anything else being illegal. Break one law, may as well break 'em all. Just be careful.

 

[demonnic]

Yeah I'm honestly surprised they haven't tried to make the bar leagues illegal here.

 

[DMoogle]

In some states even tipping is illegal.

In Georgia, just playing poker is illegal, so IDGAF about rake, tips, or anything else being illegal. Break one law, may as well break 'em all. Just be careful.

It's a bit more problematic in VA, for two reasons: (1) State law varies, and it's more than a slap on the wrist here; running a raked game can get you up to 10 years in prison (depending on profitability). From what I've heard, West Virginia as an example it's really no big deal if you get caught. (2) Many people in northern VA work for the Federal government either directly or indirectly, have security clearances, and aren't willing to risk them to play in an illegal game. My wife is one of those people, so she wouldn't allow a raked game even if I could get the players.

 

[Coyote]

For HOME GAMES ONLY:

A friend as dedicated dealer should get tipped by winners (or anybody) upon cash-out.

A professional dealer should be paid strictly by the hour. The host could either kindly ask, or demand, the guests' contribution - depending on local laws. Extra remuneration in the form of tips would be OK, but only upon cash-out.

Absolutely NO raking of pots in home games.

My2c.

 

[Taghkanic]

Same.



I realize it's probably not his/her every day job, but working 10 hours straight with only a couple of 5-10 minute breaks, frankly sounds unhealthy. Obv I don’t know your dealer and one can argue that it's his/her choice to do so, but really you are creating an environment where that becomes a ”choice” by making it a for tips only job.

He takes breaks whenever he chooses and for as long as he wants. When the game runs longer, the number of breaks goes up to more like 4-5. (Navy vet, he is used to long stints at difficult work.)

 

[Taghkanic]

Re.: Legality: I spoke with someone very high up in law enforcement in my area—who plays poker regularly at a social hall tournament.

He seems very aware of the types and number of private games around his sphere of influence, and my sense was that busting poker games is not at all on his list of priorities… unless things got so out of hand that a game attracted thieves/loan sharks/beatings/other serious problems that extended beyond the walls of the game itself.

That said, not every area has a high-up guy sympathetic to poker players. And I still suspect that if neighbors or the media made a stink, it could force the hand of even an ally like that.

[FWIW this guy is a terrible player. Notoriously loose-passive.]

 

[GoJo_Dingo]

Curious what people think of this:
I'm in VA where raked games are very illegal. Despite this, obviously many people still run games, and many recreational players still flock to those games because (1) they don't care about rake and (2) good free food, booze, etc.

I've been playing in a game that kind of does a compromise between the two. There's no rake, but there's a very high tip standard ($5/$5 game with a frequent straddle). Only $5 chips are used, and people frequently tip much more. I've seen $100 tips for pots over $3k. The host splits the tips with the dealer to be able to provide the food/drinks, although I don't know their specific arrangement.

Since the tips are "optional," the game is legal, although I know people who don't tip enough don't get invited back. Seems like a reasonable compromise. Thoughts?

You said "very illegal" are there different degrees of legality? Like someone may be 12% guilty of committing a crime if they rake 5% of the pot in the case of "not very much illegal"?

 

[Taghkanic]

A game where the host splits tips with the dealer is effectively raked, imho. Especially when the tips can’t be smaller than $5.

Meanwhile, I would suggest that a unraked game with dealers who work only for tips should be called “a tipped game” for short.

 

[Poker Zombie]

A game where the host splits tips with the dealer is effectively raked, imho. Especially when the tips can’t be smaller than $5.

Meanwhile, I would suggest that a unraked game with dealers who work only for tips should be called “a tipped game” for short.

If the dealer is a non-playing host, or the child/spouse of the host (effectively a co-host) would you just call it raked then?

A tip is a rake. Even a voluntary rake, that if not paid (or not paid up to expectations) gets a player stricken from the invite list, is no longer voluntary. As such, a tip is a rake.

 

[Taghkanic]

If the dealer is a non-playing host, or the child/spouse of the host (effectively a co-host) would you just call it raked then?

A tip is a rake. Even a voluntary rake, that if not paid (or not paid up to expectations) gets a player stricken from the invite list, is no longer voluntary. As such, a tip is a rake.

I think it is good and useful in all things to try to use clear terminology with precise definitions, so we know what we are discussing.

Lumping together (a) tips optionally and voluntarily given by players to a dealer with (b) chips taken out systematically and non-optionally to solely benefit the game organizer(s) is neither clear nor precise.

We use, for example, the terms “bet” and “raise” to mean two related but distinctly different things. Should we get rid of raise and just use bet to cover both?

We likewise have the related terms “set” and “trips,” which both refer to having three of a kind. There is a reason for having two terms, because there are game situations where it can make a big difference. The same set can’t be held by two players at the same time; trips can. Should we get rid of set and use trips for both?

(And when someone at my table mixes these up, it’s a good indication that they are a rec.)

… Back to the original topic, some raked games have dealers who receive tips, some don’t. Some games only pay dealers out of a rake. Some unraked games have dealers who get tipped. Some raked games don’t have dealers at all, taking their cut up front or by time or at cashout.

 

[Coyote]

I think it is good and useful in all things to try to use clear terminology with precise definitions, so we know what we are discussing.

Lumping together (a) tips optionally and voluntarily given by players to a dealer with (b) chips taken out systematically and non-optionally to solely benefit the game organizer(s) is neither clear nor precise.

We use, for example, the terms “bet” and “raise” to mean two related but distinctly different things. Should we get rid of raise and just use bet to cover both?

We likewise have the related terms “set” and “trips,” which both refer to having three of a kind. There is a reason for having two terms, because there are game situations where it can make a big difference. The same set can’t be held by two players at the same time; trips can. Should we get rid of set and use trips for both?

(And when someone at my table mixes these up, it’s a good indication that they are a rec.)

… Back to the original topic, some raked games have dealers who receive tips, some don’t. Some games only pay dealers out of a rake. Some unraked games have dealers who get tipped. Some raked games don’t have dealers at all, taking their cut up front or by time or at cashout.

Sorry, but, IMHO, a disorientating and obfuscating post. NOT all home games are the same, regardless of whatever.
Sure, each player plays where they like and where they are liked back, anyway.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Are you saying that a mandatory tip is not a rake?

Mind you, I do not mind the concept of a rake if there is a service provided. If its a dealer and tips are expected, then I'll tip, but I'm not pretending it's not a rake. I'm fairly certain that every jurisdiction that disallows rakes, they will call expected tips a rake.

 

[doublebooyah85]

If the tip is being split w the host…it’s a rake.

If the host is keeping his hands off, and tips go to the dealer, that’s not a raked game imho.

And lastly, even voluntarily tips is gonna be considered illegal in many states.

 

[Coyote]

If the tip is being split w the host…it’s a rake.

If the host is keeping his hands off, and tips go to the dealer, that’s not a raked game imho.

And lastly, even voluntarily tips is gonna be considered illegal in many states.

If pots are tipped upon, rather than having voluntary tips upon cash-out ONLY, it's a rake, even if destined for the local Archdiocese or the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel.

 

[BGinGA]

In many jurisdictions, any game where all money is not 100% returned to the players is considered illegal, and that often also includes voluntary contributions to dealers, hosts, or a community food pool. In some places, even a simple "Hey, let's all pitch in $3 and order a pizza" is enough to turn a legal gathering to play cards into an illegal one. Stupid but true.

 

[upNdown]

You said "very illegal" are there different degrees of legality? Like someone may be 12% guilty of committing a crime if they rake 5% of the pot?

Misdemeanors = barely illegal
Felonies = very illegal

We probably spend a disproportionate amount of time discussing the legality of poker games. Laws and law enforcement vary by state, and I can only speak for mine. But I know of plenty of raked games around here and I’ve never once heard of one getting busted. And I spend a fair amount of time in the criminal courts.
But some states (like Georgia) sound mean.

 

[awsome306]

Sorry, is tipping in a home game normal? Kinda a noob here, but I wouldn't even have thought to tip in a home game.

 

[upNdown]

Sorry, is tipping in a home game normal? Kinda a noob here, but I wouldn't even have thought to tip in a home game.

Anytime there’s a non-playing dealer, tipping is pretty much expected.
I know some PCFers play in their own games and deal the whole night. Personally I’d have a hard time tipping in that situation. I’d still tip the host at the end of the night. But tipping him after every pot? I have a hard time with that.

 

[DMoogle]

You said "very illegal" are there different degrees of legality? Like someone may be 12% guilty of committing a crime if they rake 5% of the pot in the case of "not very much illegal"?

When I say "very illegal," I'm referring to both (1) the aggressiveness of enforcement (VA police have historically been known to bust games), and (2) the penalties, which can be severe. A home game that isn't structured for profit is legal here (i.e. not raked). I think just playing in a raked game is a misdemeanor (but like I said, many Federal workers will turn away just because of that). Running a raked game is a felony, and the penalty can be up to 10 years depending on how much money they take in.

A game where the host splits tips with the dealer is effectively raked, imho. Especially when the tips can’t be smaller than $5.

Meanwhile, I would suggest that a unraked game with dealers who work only for tips should be called “a tipped game” for short.

If the tip is being split w the host…it’s a rake.

If the host is keeping his hands off, and tips go to the dealer, that’s not a raked game imho.

And lastly, even voluntarily tips is gonna be considered illegal in many states.

I agree it's "effectively" raked from a player's perspective. The house brings in a lot in the game I play from these split tips.

From a legal perspective... I have to think it's gray area. I've read the exact language of the law. I'm not going to debate it since I'm not a lawyer and I suspect none of you are lawyers in VA either.

I am curious if you guys think this is fundamentally different from a player who tips the house at the end of the night. I ran a game a few times and several players did this and I didn't expect it at ALL.

Sorry, is tipping in a home game normal? Kinda a noob here, but I wouldn't even have thought to tip in a home game.

For an otherwise unpaid dealer, yes. And if the host is providing food and drink, I think a tip for them is generally warranted as well, depending on circumstances.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Sorry, is tipping in a home game normal? Kinda a noob here, but I wouldn't even have thought to tip in a home game.

In the first few home games (tournaments) I played in I tipped the host at the end of the night. I crushed the games though, so I wanted to keep my invite open.

If the host is keeping his hands off, and tips go to the dealer, that’s not a raked game imho.

This still does not cover my previous post, that you "sad faced".

1. If the host is also dealing, do you consider that raked or unraked?
2. If the host only deals and does not play, is that raked or unraked?
3. If the host does not deal, but a spouse of a child of the host deals - raked or unraked?
4. If a non-tipping player gets ousted from the game (proving tips are mandatory) is that unraked?

...and unrelated, but on the topic of rakes, If a game pulls a jackpot that is not paid out every night, but is always returned to the players, is that a rake?

 

[doublebooyah85]

In the first few home games (tournaments) I played in I tipped the host at the end of the night. I crushed the games though, so I wanted to keep my invite open.


This still does not cover my previous post, that you "sad faced".

1. If the host is also dealing, do you consider that raked or unraked?
2. If the host only deals and does not play, is that raked or unraked?
3. If the host does not deal, but a spouse of a child of the host deals - raked or unraked?
4. If a non-tipping player gets ousted from the game (proving tips are mandatory) is that unraked?

...and unrelated, but on the topic of rakes, If a game pulls a jackpot that is not paid out every night, but is always returned to the players, is that a rake?

I would consider all of those non-raked. You’re paying for dealer services.

I would also say a jackpot that goes back to the players is not a rake. That’s why it’s called a jackpot or promo funds etc. However, when casino always carries a balance that’s more of a rake, but if the home game pays it out all out after the night…no rake. If he carries it idk what I call it. Probably still just a jackpot pool bc it’s going to be so minimal.

#4 is if a player doesn’t tip, would he/she get get an invite back? It’s not that simple. Is he/she a lot of fun and an action player? Then yes they r invited back (but those players usually tip well anyway lol). Or if I needed a player I may still reach out to them.

However if you want to consider it rake, go ahead. I understand your viewpoint I just disagree.

I really value a dealer and can understand how a rake can hurt a game so to me they’re completely different. Having a dealer isn’t going to hurt a game like a rake could.

When we discuss rake we really want to discuss how much is the rake, and is it preventing from the game being profitable or sustainable. I don’t want to mix in the dealer into that discussion.

I lose money on my home game when I host. I provide some very good drinks food snacks and a very nice space. Let alone the poker supplies. My dealer makes money from dealing. No way someone is going to call my game a raked game without me correcting them. And if they keep calling it raked I’d give them an earful and not invite them back.

But on this forum…I enjoy a good discussion.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Anytime there’s a non-playing dealer, tipping is pretty much expected.
I know some PCFers play in their own games and deal the whole night. Personally I’d have a hard time tipping in that situation. I’d still tip the host at the end of the night. But tipping him after every pot? I have a hard time with that.

Hmmm why? They r performing a service…At the end of the night is the same as every hand essentially? So that is a tip? I assume end of the night bc it’s microstakes and u don’t want to keep tipping a quarter every hand.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I lose money on my home game when I host.

Yeah, I probably should have mentioned that one in the other thread about starting a home game. Expect to "lose". Even when you finish ahead at the tables, you will be behind in food, and cleanup/replacement costs. You don't have to drive anywhere at the end of the night though, so you got that going for ya...

 

[Taghkanic]

Sorry, is tipping in a home game normal? Kinda a noob here, but I wouldn't even have thought to tip in a home game.

Your home games have non-player dealers who don’t get tipped or paid anything?

I wasn’t aware that there are people who like to deal cards for 5-10 hours just for fun

 

[krafticus]

Your home games have non-player dealers who don’t get tipped or paid anything?

I wasn’t aware that there are people who like to deal cards for 5-10 hours just for fun

I've done that at many of meetups

 

[Taghkanic]

If pots are tipped upon, rather than having voluntary tips upon cash-out ONLY, it's a rake, even if destined for the local Archdiocese or the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel.

Not sure what you mean by “tipped upon.” Do you mean some sort of compulsory tip, automatically taken?

If tips are voluntary (i.e. given by the players, with the host not sharing any of it), it is imprecise and confusing to call them a rake.

If you go to a casino and ask them about their rake, they will give you a rate sheet which says how much gets dropped for the house (and promotions) based on pot size. It will not say “you must tip dealers,” because they can’t compel tips… and that is not part of the house’s business, unless they have odd and potentially illegal tipping policies.

 

[Taghkanic]

I've done that at many of meetups

Please, that’s totally different and you know it… How many meetups do you attend per year?

Would you deal for free 25 times per year in an unraked game, as a non-player? I could fit you in

 

[krafticus]

Please, that’s totally different and you know it… How many meetups do you attend per year?

Would you deal for free 25 times per year in an unraked game, as a non-player? I could fit you in

I don't even play 25 times per year
yeah, I know that's an outlier. I didn't read the previous stuff anyway.

 

[upNdown]

Hmmm why? They r performing a service…At the end of the night is the same as every hand essentially? So that is a tip? I assume end of the night bc it’s microstakes and u don’t want to keep tipping a quarter every hand.

They might be performing a service, but it kinda feels like that guy who runs out at red light to clean your windshield - they're also performing a service, but it's a service that I didn't ask for and one I'd rather do myself. That attitude likely stems from the fact that I'm usually playing .25/.50 - stakes not big enough to support a paid dealer - so I'm used to (and very comfortable with) self dealing. So just pass the deal! Maybe the host/player/dealer isn't comfortable with other people dealing and he'd rather do it himself? Then he's doing it for his benefit, not mine.
I dunno, maybe it's just something I'm not used to, but it just feels kind of weird to be routinely tipping another player in the game.