Home game tipping (1 Viewer)

[doublebooyah85]

In a $2-$5 game $1 tips suck. I’d rather not tip and take care of them when it’s a big pot.

Truthfully the best is to pay the dealer $30/hour? Take it from the bomb pot. And if a player wants to tip more on a big pot he can. This is how most vegas games roll $5-$10 and up to avoid these problems.

Low limit games you need volunteers essentially

Mid limit games the dealers are the biggest winners

High limit games they usually pay hourly and sometimes come up big w extra tips

 

[Poker Zombie]

I would happily work for tips or for a straight salary. I'd prefer straight salary, because I have worked on commission before in a couple of sales jobs. Even though I made good money on commission, I hated the variability. Worse, I hated the artificially "nice" person I had to become to get more sales.

Dealers all across Europe deal for a salary and no tips. The European card rooms I've played in have solid dealers, on par with any tipped dealer. Biggest difference may be that a tipped dealer may take more shit from a player that tips well. Act like a dick in a non-tipping casino and the dealer has no reason to ignore it.

I'm going to pause for a while, because we are crossing our posts. Doubleboo and I seem to be on the same page.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I would happily work for tips or for a straight salary. I'd prefer straight salary, because I have worked on commission before in a couple of sales jobs. Even though I made good money on commission, I hated the variability. Worse, I hated the artificially "nice" person I had to become to get more sales.

Dealers all across Europe deal for a salary and no tips. The European card rooms I've played in have solid dealers, on par with any tipped dealer. Biggest difference may be that a tipped dealer may take more shit from a player that tips well. Act like a dick in a non-tipping casino and the dealer has no reason to ignore it.

I'm going to pause for a while, because we are crossing our posts. Doubleboo and I seem to be on the same page.

Don’t name shame me. It’s DoubleBOOYAH

 

[Poker Zombie]

Don’t name shame me. It’s DoubleBOOYAH

Even you forgot the 85

Besides, with the Thanos avatar, I just want to call you double-boo.

Deadpool would.

 

[DMoogle]

Gotta be pretty big stake homegames. Unless the players are very generous dumb

5/5/10 sometimes /20 PLO and/or Big O. Usually like $10k-$20k on the table? So decent stakes but nothing crazy.

Generous players too. It's northern VA, there's a good amount of money in the area.

 

[Eriks]

5/5/10 sometimes /20 PLO and/or Big O. Usually like $10k-$20k on the table? So decent stakes but nothing crazy.

Generous players too. It's northern VA, there's a good amount of money in the area.

Yeah, fair enough. That’s probably at least 10-20 x most standard type home games.

 

[Taghkanic]

Truthfully the best is to pay the dealer $30/hour?

$30/hour will get you a very mediocre dealer at best in my area. Might not find anyone willing to do it.

 

[allforcharity]

It's probably been mentioned (or I forgot), but has anybody tried front-end tips/charge to cover a dedicated home dealer? Like 5% of initial buy-in, and then 3% of every buy-in after that?

I suppose it would depend on how much is expected to be on the table at the end of the night, but 8-handed at a $200 buy-in with $5000 on the table at the end would give a dealer $80+$102 = $182 for maybe 5 hours? $36.40 per hour, would that be considered too low?

 

[upNdown]

It's probably been mention (or I forgot), but has anybody tried front-end tips/charge to cover a dedicated home dealer? Like 5% of initial buy-in, and then 3% of every buy-in after that?

I suppose it would depend on how much is expected to be on the table at the end of the night, but 8-handed at a $200 buy-in with $5000 on the table at the end would give a dealer $80+$102 = $182 for maybe 5 hours? $36.40 per hour, would that be considered too low?

That would be one way of sidestepping a rake (at least in appearance) but why? Why should the amount of money a dealer makes be directly proportional to the amount of money on the table?

 

[Taghkanic]

I mentioned it before, but it’s worth saying again:

Since I introduced a dealer last year, the total cashouts in my game have increased. Not decreased.

Increased substantially… Despite the dealer’s tips “taking money off the table.”

Why? Because we are playing way more hands per session.

And because people are relaxing and enjoying themselves more.

Sometimes the impact of a change is the opposite of what people assume without having thought about it.

 

[allforcharity]

Why should the amount of money a dealer makes be directly proportional to the amount of money on the table?

It shouldn't necessarily, I was just using those numbers as an example. It really requires knowledge of your game to reach a reasonable rate of remuneration for the dealer. Like it has been said before, it's about compensation for a value-added service, not about who gets dealt a winning river card and scooping a big pot (and how often). Tips can even be done on top.

 

[Taghkanic]

One thing I do like about the tipping chips idea is that if everyone got the same amount to start, it would show who isn’t pulling their weight / cheating out.

 

[doublebooyah85]

$30/hour will get you a very mediocre dealer at best in my area. Might not find anyone willing to do it.

Yeah that would just be what’s pulled from the bomb/time pot. Big tippers would still throw you something.

Dealing is easy work but the hours suck.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I mentioned it before, but it’s worth saying again:

Since I introduced a dealer last year, the total cashouts in my game have increased. Not decreased.

Increased substantially… Despite the dealer’s tips “taking money off the table.”

Why? Because we are playing way more hands per session.

And because people are relaxing and enjoying themselves more.

Sometimes the impact of a change is the opposite of what people assume without having thought about it.

I would agree that the introduction of a skilled dealer may increase the amount in play. More hands per hour - and I believe you are talking something like 8 hour sessions? Yeah, that's a lot more hands, a lot more chances to catch a cooler, a lot more rebuys... more money.

If the dealer is taking a couple buy-ins off the table, that's also more money.

Depending on when you introduced the dealer, the value of money may have also changed. I have not added a dealer but my games play 50% larger than they did 4 years ago. The denom on money means less (roughly 21% less) than if did 4 years ago.

 

[DMoogle]

It's probably been mention (or I forgot), but has anybody tried front-end tips/charge to cover a dedicated home dealer? Like 5% of initial buy-in, and then 3% of every buy-in after that?

I suppose it would depend on how much is expected to be on the table at the end of the night, but 8-handed at a $200 buy-in with $5000 on the table at the end would give a dealer $80+$102 = $182 for maybe 5 hours? $36.40 per hour, would that be considered too low?

Yup I played in a game that did this. $120 per player. House kept nothing, it all went to dealer and to pay for food and drink.

Some liked it, some did not. Overall I think the cons outweighed the pros. Main issues off the top of my head are:

1. The feeling that you're "already down" even before the game has started.
2. Flat amount despite how long you play.
3. Players that are less experienced may balk once they hear of the structure, not quite realizing that tips often end up costing more.

That game no longer runs for whatever it's worth.

 

[Taghkanic]

Depending on when you introduced the dealer, the value of money may have also changed. I have not added a dealer but my games play 50% larger than they did 4 years ago.

Added the dealer only last Fall. Late September/early October iirc.

 

[BGinGA]

...has anybody tried front-end tips/charge to cover a dedicated home dealer? Like 5% of initial buy-in, and then 3% of every buy-in after that?

In one home game I used to deal, the host sold only $100 buy-ins (and re-buys) for $95 in chips. The extra $5 was used to pay for food/drinks and the dealer. It was a six game rotation per orbit of 25c/50c NLHE, PLO, and SOHE, and 2/4 limit Badugi, Stud8, and O8).

I was paid $10/hr by the host, and the players still tipped per pot.

 

[allforcharity]

In one home game I used to deal, the host sold only $100 buy-ins (and re-buys) for $95 in chips. The extra $5 was used to pay for food/drinks and the dealer. It was a six game rotation per orbit of 25c/50c NLHE, PLO, and SOHE, and 2/4 limit Badugi, Stud8, and O8).

I was paid $10/hr by the host, and the players still tipped per pot.

So would you say a system like this could work if you took care to calculate based on the average buy ins per session (with a reasonably expected variance), or do you think it's unlikely to work (because of player/dealer complaints or whatever)?

 

[BGinGA]

So would you say a system like this could work if you took care to calculate based on the average buy ins per session (with a reasonably expected variance), or do you think it's unlikely to work (because of player/dealer complaints or whatever)?

I think it worked fine. Never heard any player complaints as a dealer (and felt fairly compensated), or later as a player. A 5% dealer 'rake' can definitely work, pending stakes.

Over the course of several years, he had around 20+ players on the attendee list and almost always filled the table for his game every other week. Around 6-7 of the players were also regulars in my monthly league tournaments.

 

[bmacpoker]

I suppose I just like things semi-casual, I don't really play the stakes I see mentioned in this thread. I throw a $1 for winning a pot, sometimes an especially big pot or crazy hand I splash with more and don't really have a system for how much. Every home game dealer has seemed pretty appreciative.

If it's getting to slightly higher stakes where the tipping can be disrespectful if not following a code, I think that needs to be well organized and expressed to the players clearly. I'd be really uncomfortable and embarrassed if I realized I wasn't tipping properly, and also it may impact my interest in the game.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I suppose I just like things semi-casual, I don't really play the stakes I see mentioned in this thread. I throw a $1 for winning a pot, sometimes an especially big pot or crazy hand I splash with more and don't really have a system for how much. Every home game dealer has seemed pretty appreciative.

If it's getting to slightly higher stakes where the tipping can be disrespectful if not following a code, I think that needs to be well organized and expressed to the players clearly. I'd be really uncomfortable and embarrassed if I realized I wasn't tipping properly, and also it may impact my interest in the game.

I think that's the point. For some of us, $20 is hours of back breaking work that will inevitably change how we live or enjoy our lives in older age. For others it is something you made in under 15 minutes sitting on your ass. Somehow both of us found our way to PCF, and debate if it is fair to pay or not pay the dealer that same $20 - especially if it was not an anticipated expense.

 

[Coyote]

It would be helpful hear to some actual arguments to back up the above, which otherwise are just opinions masquerading as rules…

I didn't say the are rules; they are recommendations based on my own experience of home games, at stakes below those of casinos (so max 1/1)

For example:
What is the legal, ethical or practical difference between players tipping an amount of their choice when they win a hand* vs. people tipping at the end of the game?

Legal: Depends on the jurisdiction.

Ethical: Hourly fixed remuneration instead of mid-game tips per hand means that the dealer doesn't have to be particularly "nice" to any player, and that each player doesn't have to be particularly "nice" to the dealer.

Practical: Dealer tipped in chips mid-game can be a logistical problem in homes and make the host's / banker's life difficult. Zero sum is easier to bank.
After cash-out, players can give to the dealer whatever quantity of their cash, on top of his pre-set remuneration. And the game is over for that player, no more dealer's love to be bought.

I will give you a hypothetical.

Player A wins a big hand. A real monster, like $1000 in a $100 buy-in game. Tips his dealer 1/2 the pot.

If Player A is also the spouse of the dealer, is this not akin to going south?

Actually, spouses / partners can be a great dealing solution, provided they don't get paid or tipped AT ALL. And, preferably, using a cheap shuffling machine.

Volunteer dealers seem to be the ideal solution for low-stakes home games.
In my .50/1E game, we have a friend dealing voluntarily, for the company and the booze. He may accept tips upon cash out, by winners only.
If he were professional, I 'd certainly pay him by the hour.

 

[Taghkanic]

Legal: Depends on the jurisdiction.

Can you identify a jurisdiction which makes a distinction between tipping as you go and tipping at the end? I have never seen any language related to this. Would be useful to know that you’re not just making stuff up to serve a point of view.

 

[Taghkanic]

I'd be really uncomfortable and embarrassed if I realized I wasn't tipping properly, and also it may impact my interest in the game.

If the host hasn’t told everyone what to tip, which would apparently be offensive to many here, how could anyone know what the norm is in the game?

Oh, right. By watching what everyone else is tipping, especially the regs.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Can you identify a jurisdiction which makes a distinction between tipping as you go and tipping at the end? I have never seen any language related to this. Would be useful to know that you’re not just making stuff up to serve a point of view.

This may be completely off base bc I’m lost somewhat in this convo but state of ohio it’s illegal to accept tips. At my charity outings all dealers r true volunteers. They can’t accept tips.

Local poker clubs in ohio somehow skirt this with different color chips to tip (@pokerzombie) but if contested at court I think they would still be convicted of whatever silly charge they brought forward.

 

[Taghkanic]

Ethical: Hourly fixed remuneration instead of mid-game tips per hand means that the dealer doesn't have to be particularly "nice" to any player, and that each player doesn't have to be particularly "nice" to the dealer

If your players are only tipping because the dealer sucks up to them, the problem is your players.

Good regs appreciate solid dealing and don’t have to be cajoled or scolded to make it worthwhile for the dealer to work.

 

[Taghkanic]

This may be completely off base bc I’m lost somewhat in this convo but state of ohio it’s illegal to accept tips. At my charity outings all dealers r true volunteers. They can’t accept tips.

Local poker clubs in ohio somehow skirt this with different color chips to tip (@pokerzombie) but if contested at court I think they would still be convicted of whatever silly charge they brought forward.

You just blew right past the point.

I was asking what the legal difference is between tipping in-game vs at tipping at cashout.

You seemed to be claiming there was some based on jurisdiction.

I don’t know of any jurisdiction which makes a distinction based on the timing of tips. Either tipping is illegal or not, when they are given seems irrelevant.

 

[doublebooyah85]

You just blew right past the point.

I was asking what the legal difference is between tipping in-game vs at tipping at cashout.

You seemed to be claiming there was some based on jurisdiction.

I don’t know of any jurisdiction which makes a distinction based on the timing of tips. Either tipping is illegal or not, when they are given seems irrelevant.

Yeah I didn’t make that claim. I think @Coyote did.

But any time you tip at my charity outing during or after is gonna be a no-no.

 

[Taghkanic]

Practical: Dealer tipped in chips mid-game can be a logistical problem in homes and make the host's / banker's life difficult. Zero sum is easier to bank.
After cash-out, players can give to the dealer whatever quantity of their cash, on top of his pre-set remuneration. And the game is over for that player, no more dealer's love to be bought.

This makes zero sense to me. I host an unraked game where the dealer gets tips when players want to.

It is still “zero sum” as far as cashing out and verifying that the bank is good. The dealer has to cash out, too.

Mine brings a box and periodically drops tips into it as they build up in his tray. At the end of the night he presents the chips he was awarded by players.

Simple accounting. No hassle.

 

[bmacpoker]

If the host hasn’t told everyone what to tip, which would apparently be offensive to many here, how could anyone know what the norm is in the game?

Oh, right. By watching what everyone else is tipping, especially the regs.

Yes, that is what I or anyone else would do if presented with the situation. I'm saying it would be nice to know what you're getting into and not have to observe for several orbits before being comfortable. But generally of course you figure it out from watching others.

I'm not offended, and I was just giving my thoughts on tipping if I were a newer player to a higher stakes game. My bad.