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KK On The Button (2 Viewers)

moojersey

moojersey

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Playing $1 / $2 live in a local casino card room. Took a shot at a tournament only to have my AA cracked in the early levels and I stacked off. I did not feel like firing another bullet. So cash it is...

Pretty standard stuff going on in the first hour or so. Table seems to be in a good mood too.

Cast of characters:

A few 'old man coffee' types (borrowing term from DrStrange lol), I plan to run them over when circumstances seem good.

Solid LAG Asian player at the other end in seat 10. I've seen him with piles and piles in front of him. He's pretty deep right now. Playing $700-800. Plan is not to get too involved with him, too often. Pretty sure he'll outplay me. There is easy money at this table. I don't want to go to war with the best player here.

Couple solid regs that I've played with before. Seldom bluff. Most bets are to take you to value town.

"The Loose Cannon" - Ultra loose ultra aggressive always drunk player (who has won a WPT event) is here too. He is a riot to play with - loose and wild. Very entertaining. I will post some of his stuff eventually. I think you guys will love it. Have had great sessions with him and "The Greek" when they finish playing $500 blackjack hands.

Only other stand out is a couple nitty middle aged guys at the other end. One hasn't played a single hand in the past hour. Must be waiting for those Aces. I'm sure he'll get plenty of action too when they come lol...

One is on tilt complaining because Asian guy raises too much lol ... 'blocking' him out of the pots he should be winning. I'm pretty amused because he doesn't realize that is the point.

Hand in question:

Mostly everyone is playing $200'ish
The Nits have a bit more, (must of stacked some fish earlier) they have $350 - 400'ish
LAG Asian covers table.

Hero in seat 3, playing $240, on the button with KK

UTG $250'ish - (solid reg) limps $2

Loose Cannon $200'ish, limps $2

Nit #1 who hasn't played folds again (still no aces)

Nit #2 400'ish - "tilty complainer", limps $2

Around to skilled LAG Asian in seat 10. Raises to $15.

Seat 1 HJ, "old man coffee" is feeling frisky. He calls the $15. (He must have AJ suited lol. Old guys love that hand for some reason. ..)

CO "old man coffee" #2 folds. He doesn't want to take his pal's retirement $$$

Hero?
 
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Hero's table image matters. Not what Hero thinks of himself but how the table is going to perceive Hero's image is.

So the pot would be $54 after hero catches up to the $15 bet. Not folding. Hero might flat, raise " normal " or go all in. (don't laugh, all-in might be a fine play.)

$35 on top or $50 all day seems like the normal raise. I'd expect Hero to get two callers yielding a $159 pot with Hero having $190 left behind. The plan is to jam most flops.

Hero could flat the $15 and proceed aggressively post flop on a "safe" flop.

Hero could go all-in. There is a RIO risk here but the risk is greatly affected by Hero's table image.

Any of these could be viable plans. Not knowing Hero's image, I'd say the normal raise is best and the other two plans are roughly equal.

DrStrange
 
Hero's image is definitely on the TAG side. Playing mostly from late position. Never limping into pots or playing any limped pots. I've only shown down one loser. K, 10 suited. Turned top 2 pair losing to flopped set of KK's.

Image might be that of a loser too as that was a $100 loss and hero had to reload to $200
 
Jimulacrum said:
Reraise to $60 total.
Click to expand...

I agree. I don't like flatting here because it invites the early limpers into the pot as well, and I don't really want to take my Kings into battle against four other hands. We have position, most likely the best hand and a great opportunity to narrow the field down. No need for FPS here, raise.
 
Raise to $30 get 4 callers, Asian 3 bets, coffee folds, hero goes all-in.

Profit.

EDIT: 4 bet? Sorry, I don't normally play circus games.
 
Last edited:
Ok...

Hero raises the button with this strong of a hand of course .... this spot is the things dreams are made of.

Hero quickly cuts out a raise making it $50 to go.

SB - old man coffee takes no time tossing his cards into the muck

BB - follows suit...his cards quickly hit the muck

UTG ($250'ish has me covered) - solid reg player, whom I've played with before maybe 3x ... with what seems very little thought...casually says "I'm all in". not sure how attentive to details he is, but I can remember winning some really big pots with him sitting next to me. I always had it when serious chips went into the middle. don't remember showing anything ridiculous with him around...although I have done it...and word travels.

The Loose Cannon ($200'ish pretty close) - tanks for a little while seeming a bit confused by the action...or mildly amused in his drunken giddyness. As a side note, I think the Loose Cannon is actually scared of me as silly as that sounds. He knows I'm a pretty tight player most of the time. We have joked a lot at the table and I know he really respects my game. I've played quite a bit with him. He leans back and takes a nice long swig of Miller Lite from his plastic cup, then leans forward while pushing all of his chips into the middle. A bit strange to me because I know The Loose Cannon folds to me 80% of the time when I bet larger. Also this is odd to me because as loose as I've seen him play in the past (rasing 10,5o to $40 pre flop) he does make some really good lay downs. He knows when to give it up. Generally I've seen him avoid big clashing disasters.

Folds back to Hero.

We are now getting pretty close to 2 to 1 on our money as on player covers and the other is very close.

What would you do?
 
I would call. Good chance one of them have aces, but I'm stacking off w kk with a 100bb stack.
 
Interesting. Nervous call for me. I'm probably going with the Mike McDermott mindset here. If he has aces, well whatever. Bad day in the office for you just got worse!

I'm calling under the belief he's put you on AKs and and is holding 99 thru QQ.
 
Hero owes $190 to call. The pot would be $200 + $240 + $240 + ~$30 dead money including rake = $710 Hero needs to have 27% equity to call.

If someone holds aces, Hero has ~20% equity. If they don't Hero has ~60% equity. (No precision, just rule of thumb guesses.)

Hero needs to find neither villain with aces a bit less than 20% of the time for calling to make sense.

I really don't like the idea a solid regular has check-raised all in playing UTG. If UTG doesn't have aces, what are we putting him on? AK? QQ? KK? Is he really the type of player to get creative with something like JTs or 99?

"Loose Cannon" could have anything - two villains like him in the pot and I'd call. Hero still rates to lose a lot, but the reward is worth the risk.

I can live with a fold here if Hero is confident in his villain read on UTG. If Hero isn't so sold on his read, then call

I lean fold -=- DrStrange
 
I completely misread the action - I thought we were heads up! :confused: it was early, just started work and coffee hadn't done it's job yet.

OK, another coffee for me and I'll come back to thread! :rolleyes:
 
I don't know how to play NL but folding Kings preflop in a cash game is even a consideration?
 
bentax1978 said:
Under the right circumstances (not saying this is or isn't one of them), yes.
Click to expand...

You guys are much better at the pokers than me.

It's hard for me to conceive of a scenario where folding kings in a cash game is profitable in the long term.
 
In the long term, no. In once a year type spots where it's blindingly obvious, yes.

I've only folded KK live once and was right. It was against a guy I had literally never seen raise pre flop and he 3b shoved my open.

Online I'll do it from time to time as well. A guy that's 4b once in 10k hands 4b shoves into a 3b and a cold call? Ya he's got aces.
 
It is only because we have an UTG limp/4-bet jam by a solid regular that I lean fold. And even then, it is close.

Let's also say before results coming in that seeing AA this time doesn't make folding right. Hero could see AA two time in three and still profitably call. So seeing that hand this one time is not proof. (Though seeing something else in UTG's hand this time is pretty good evidence that Hero should be calling with KK.)
 
ohio3302016 said:
You guys are much better at the pokers than me.

It's hard for me to conceive of a scenario where folding kings in a cash game is profitable in the long term.
Click to expand...

I've personally done it twice. Once was in a very deep game. I was sitting on $900 and he had me covered (1/3 NLHE). I lost almost $100 preflop, but based on the action, I couldn't put him on any other hand (and he showed me the aces).

The other time was in a much less deep game, I think I only had $180 in a 1/2 NLHE game. Guy to the right of me was an older guy, tight as a rock, not even sure he played more than one hand in the almost 2 hours I was there. he raised from MP to $12, one called, I raised to $30 with KK. Folds around. He goes all-in. Guy in between us (who I had been friendly and talking with the whole session) thinks for a few seconds then makes a reluctant fold. He then makes a comment to the effect of "he's all yours". He was in no way trying to give me info, he was was just trying to be funny/playful. Well the guy who raised freaked out a bit and starts giving the guy crap for trying to give me info. Asks the dealer to take control or he's calling the floor. it was all a bit strange and a bit of an over reaction (I thought). Based on this and the fact that he hadn't played more than 1 hand in the past hour plus, I decided to fold my KK face up (this was a long time ago, not sure I'd fold face up now).

Anyway, the dude goes from being a little agitated to irate. Now he's convinced the guy next to me somehow tipped me off. (The funny part was he had AJ, which had I know, I would have been more inclined to play my hand). He said a bunch of stuff under his breath (and some out loud) and then stormed off. Probably saved about $150 and was pretty entertained for a few minutes.
 
ohio3302016 said:
The guy was mad you folded KK to his AJ? That makes no sense.
Click to expand...

I was thinking the same but maybe he had inside information that an ace was coming on the board LOL. Also, he sat there without action for THAT long and shoved with AJ. Holy crap, I feel sorry for the guy because he obviously just had the most cold run of cards in history if AJ looked that good!

Back to this hand... I'm calling and ready to lose my stack but praying for loosey to be holding :2c::2d: (or worse) and UTG holding :9c::9d: thru :qc::qd:. Besides, if UTG is holding :as::ah:, loosey goosey is going to come from behind and take this pot with magic luck so both big hands are doomed. It's worth the gamble to me though.**

**zero logic involved here, that's why I don't win lots at poker.
 
ohio3302016 said:
I don't know how to play NL but folding Kings preflop in a cash game is even a consideration?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I can't even remember how many times I've folded KK in a cash game. Got lucky and folded it in a tournament once too.

In this spot, I'm pretty sure I'm folding, but it's harder to decide when I'm only reading about it versus being there. Sure as hell seems like there's a very good chance of aces being in someone's hand.
 

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