Cash Game Pot Limit or Fixed Limit? If fixed, which structure? (2 Viewers)

[Legend5555]

There's a reason PL mixed games at meet ups are typically .25/.50 with $100 buy in cap. Even those games see massive swings.

 

[warma]

Where my group is different. I believe everyone enjoys the 3/6 game with $1.00 chips. I have thought of moving to $3.00 chips for funsies

Kevin, I definitely recommend borrowing a limit set first. Your group may hate playing FL.

Have you thought about $1.50 chips?

 

[detroitdad]

Have you thought about $1.50 chips?

I would hate playing a 3/6 FL game with $3.00 chips. I was joking. Part of the allure for me in playing limit is having a thousand Duke Silver $1.00 chips on the table!!

 

[detroitdad]

I'd say 3/6 or 4/8 is the right spot.

I've only played with his local group a few times. I think 3/6 would feel like micro stakes. Its almost to small for my game. I think Keven should try 4/8 the first time. The second limit game roll with 5/10. Then evaluate the two games and go from there.

 

[churlbut18]

I've only played with his local group a few times. I think 3/6 would feel like micro stakes. Its almost to small for my game. I think Keven should try 4/8 the first time. The second limit game roll with 5/10. Then evaluate the two games and go from there.

My suggestion…. Progress from $4/$8 to $6/$12 and skip $5/$10 (awful). This way you can support both limits with a $2 chip set…. $5/$10 should never be played…. Lol…. You need a $5 chip and it is only a 1 chip / 2 chip structure which sucks…

 

[detroitdad]

My suggestion…. Progress from $4/$8 to $6/$12 and skip $5/$10 (awful). This way you can support both limits with a $2 chip set…. $5/$10 should never be played…. Lol…. You need a $5 chip and it is only a 1 chip / 2 chip structure which sucks…

That makes sense. I'll never host over 4/8 so I didn't consider that. I did play in a 5/10 game at a meet up using $2.50 chips. That was a shit ton of fun!

 

[Marius L]

My suggestion…. Progress from $4/$8 to $6/$12 and skip $5/$10 (awful). This way you can support both limits with a $2 chip set…. $5/$10 should never be played…. Lol…. You need a $5 chip and it is only a 1 chip / 2 chip structure which sucks…

You could play 5/10 with snappers though

 

[Rhodeman77]

My suggestion…. Progress from $4/$8 to $6/$12 and skip $5/$10 (awful). This way you can support both limits with a $2 chip set…. $5/$10 should never be played…. Lol…. You need a $5 chip and it is only a 1 chip / 2 chip structure which sucks…

$5/10 should be played with $2.50 chips, not $5 chips.

I 100% agree!! I'm not sure if I will like FL. I definitely want a giant FL set, probably with $2s or $3s instead of $1s, but I need to see if I/we even like FL first. I LOVED pot limit, but the variance was crazy, especially on scarney. Maybe that was half the appeal though...LOL.

You could split the difference of the $2 or $3 chip and use a $2.50 chip to play $5/10 or $7.50/15.

I think it is the sweet spot for my game.

 

[warma]

I would hate playing a 3/6 FL game with $3.00 chips. I was joking. Part of the allure for me in playing limit is having a thousand Duke Silver $1.00 chips on the table!!

Agreed, and with you on that one. The only thing more absurd would be some odd number chip that requires mental gymnastics every time you want to act.

 

[Highli99]

Doesn't pot limit mean there are only three actions? Check, pot, or fold?

I promise to bet the pot, the whole pot, and nothing but the pot, so help me poker Jesus.


Lot of great advice from @Rhodeman77 amd @RainmanTrail here. Although some of my players claim “limit is boring”, my experience is that the average pot is way bigger since NL and PL have a ton of tiny pots and a handful of huge ones. Limit almost every hand is moderate. You can see so many more rivers in limit so the gamblers love it and the thinking players can print if they play right. Bluffs in limit are possible but you have to design them beautifully, just like in PLO.

I love limit and will be spreading a 3/6 with half kill to 4/8 game in December for sure.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

$5/10 should be played with $2.50 chips, not $5 chips.




You could split the difference of the $2 or $3 chip and use a $2.50 chip to play $5/10 or $7.50/15.

I think it is the sweet spot for my game.

View attachment 790952

Excellent suggestion. There is a high probability that we end up at 5/10 or 7.50/15 if 4/8 doesn't provide enough juice for my peeps.

 

[grebe]

Agreed, and with you on that one. The only thing more absurd would be some odd number chip that requires mental gymnastics every time you want to act.

one of the aspects of limit that just makes it so friggin great for home games is the lack of this....You either bet or you don't. No deciding on how much, it is pre-determined. It cuts down the decision time so much...no more tanking! If you are tanking in LIMIT, you are a donk.

And the beauty of a limit set is the math is easy. 2 chips for a small bet, 4 for a big bet. The stakes only matter at the beginning and at the end.

 

[Nanook]

Wait...so you're saying that your 3/6 limit game plays close to your .25/.50 no limit game? Ooooffff, we definitely need 4/8 if that's the case

I have played a lot of live poker, both limit and NL & my experience is that usually a 1/2nl plays about the same as 6/12 limit. It is going to depend on your group and all that, but if everyone is used to playing 1/2nl you are most likely going to want to play at least 4/8 limit. If you are going for a very friendly game where no one loses more than $50-$100 max then you would be best to play a little smaller limit. 50¢/$1 limit or maybe $1/$2 limit

So, I was thinking I would need a $2 workhorse for 4/8 and a $3 workhorse for 3/6. Am I think about that correct?

No, not really. As RainmanTrail posts before usually $1 chip for $3/6 limit and $4/8 limit is best.

I've always been primarily a limit player. Whenever I play in casinos, they generally try to keep it to 3-chip or 4-chip games with a few exceptions for 2-chip games. But all the card rooms I've played at (west of the Mississippi) run limit games as follows:

$1 chips for
2-4, 3-6, and 4-8

$2 chips for
6-12 and 8-16

$3 chips for
9-18 and 12-24

$5 chips for
10-20, 15-30, and 20-40

$10 chips for
30-60 and 40-80

$20 chips for
60-120 and 80-160

$25 chips for
75-150

I've never played higher than 75-150 though, other than online, so I'm not sure what they use for fair high stakes games, but I assume the trend continues. But the general idea is to not have games where it's just one chip per bet because the pots look too small (like playing a $5-10 limit game with $5 chips) and to not have games with too many chips to where you can't tell how many chips someone is betting from across the table without counting the stacks (think 6-12 or 8-16 with $1 chips, oof!). You want the pots to look big and the stack sizes to be manageable. 3-chip and 4-chip games usually provide the ideal balance.

Well stated

 

[JustinInMN]

I've never played higher than 75-150 though, other than online, so I'm not sure what they use for fair high stakes games,

Well I have proof they use $100 chips for $300/$600 at the Taj.

 

[flipupchipup]

I play in a fixed limit game every Wednesday with a bunch of doctors and lawyers. I'm the youngest person in the game as it's been going on for almost 50 years.

The structure is odd, at first I was not a fan, coming up playing strictly NL and PL games. However as time has gone on I have enjoyed it progressively more and more. There is a lot of merit to this structure imo and it allows for some additional strategic play. Here is how it works:

-We play dealers choice, so any game can be called by the dealer (yes game changes every hand, but you can change this to per orbit if it better suits your game)
-Betting structure is fixed; you can bet $1-$5 on your action. Action is capped at 4 streets, so max of $20 per betting round if maxed raised 4 times.
-You do NOT have to raise any specific amount. So if someone bets $5, you can raise $1 to $6 total with 2 remaining streets of action. Yes this is weird. However it actually works quite well multi handed for circus games and generates lots of action.
-The 2nd half of the night we bump it up to $1-$10. You can change the stakes to whatever best suits your game.
-Typical buy in is $100-$200, with the big winner usually up in the neighborhood of $300-$600 by the end of the night.

When I host now, we almost always end up playing the $1-$10 spread circus game. This format allows you to see a ton of flops, so it will give new players a lot of opportunity to learn how hands play out to showdown. Any game can be called (unless vetoed). I'm convinced this is the best format for a "friendly" circus game while still allowing strategic play. Limit feels more or less like rolling dice, and NL/PL typically plays much bigger.

 

[Nanook]

This is exactly why I love a lot of chips: Lots of chips = Lots of gamble = Great game.
This is from last friday night 20/40 Limit & my seat is the lower left stack @ right about $2300, guy to my right has $2000 in front, next guy has $4400 in front and the guy directly across from me has $4500 in Red and another 2k in $100 & $300 chips. Other end of the table looked alot like this end. Needless to say, the game was VERY active...

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

This is exactly why I love a lot of chips: Lots of chips = Lots of gamble = Great game.
This is from last friday night 20/40 Limit & my seat is the lower left stack @ right about $2300, guy to my right has $2000 in front, next guy has $4400 in front and the guy directly across from me has $4500 in Red and another 2k in $100 & $300 chips. Other end of the table looked alot like this end. Needless to say, the game was VERY active...

Wow....that's awesome!!

 

[RainmanTrail]

This is exactly why I love a lot of chips: Lots of chips = Lots of gamble = Great game.
This is from last friday night 20/40 Limit & my seat is the lower left stack @ right about $2300, guy to my right has $2000 in front, next guy has $4400 in front and the guy directly across from me has $4500 in Red and another 2k in $100 & $300 chips. Other end of the table looked alot like this end. Needless to say, the game was VERY active...

These are probably the only games I actually miss playing.

 

[CrazyEddie]

This is exactly why I love a lot of chips: Lots of chips = Lots of gamble = Great game.
This is from last friday night 20/40 Limit & my seat is the lower left stack @ right about $2300, guy to my right has $2000 in front, next guy has $4400 in front and the guy directly across from me has $4500 in Red and another 2k in $100 & $300 chips. Other end of the table looked alot like this end. Needless to say, the game was VERY active...

$2000	50 big bets	400 chips
$2300	58 big bets	460 chips
$4400	110 big bets	880 chips
$4500	112 big bets	900 chips

How much is anyone actually going to lose in one session of limit poker? Aren't most of those chips just sitting on the table for show, since they'll never be bet into a pot and will never change hands?

 

[RainmanTrail]

$2000	50 big bets	400 chips
$2300	58 big bets	460 chips
$4400	110 big bets	880 chips
$4500	112 big bets	900 chips

How much is anyone actually going to lose in one session of limit poker? Aren't most of those chips just sitting on the table for show, since they'll never be bet into a pot and will never change hands?

Losing 50+ big bets is running pretty bad, but it definitely happens with some degree of regularity. The really big stacks are typically winnings.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

$2000	50 big bets	400 chips
$2300	58 big bets	460 chips
$4400	110 big bets	880 chips
$4500	112 big bets	900 chips

How much is anyone actually going to lose in one session of limit poker? Aren't most of those chips just sitting on the table for show, since they'll never be bet into a pot and will never change hands?

Uhhhhhh... @detroitdad , @FordPickup92 , @Ben8257 please let this gentleman know how much of that money Rich or Gunny would/could lose if those were their stacks.

In all seriousness. There would be 2 to 4 players (out of 8) that would be moving a good portion of those stacks around on a regular basis at my game. More gambler than poker player in them.

 

[Ben8257]

Just going to say with Rich and Gunny at the same table on a drinking night... whatever size chip set you consider resonable... you will want to triple that to cover these two amazing gentlemen, otherwise you are going to look like a fool when they buy out your whole bank with rebuys! Lmao

On the rare night that they are on the hot seat though... get out of the way, they will crush your sole with J2 off suit... we can all stomach it once... but after the 5th time it can really get under your skin! Haha

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

Just going to say with Rich and Gunny at the same table on a drinking night... whatever size chip set you consider resonable... you will want to triple that to cover these two amazing gentlemen, otherwise you are going to look like a fool when they buy out your whole bank with rebuys! Lmao

On the rare night that they are on the hot seat though... get out of the way, they will crush your sole with J2 off suit... we can all stomach it once... but after the 5th time it can really get under your skin! Haha

True story: we were at the Rio at the ME a couple of years ago. Rich goes over to some 4 card, maybe 3 card, game of some sort. I'm just drinking and watching. He buys in for $2k, asks for all $500 chips. 4 hands later....he gets up and says, "I hate that game!" I was like...WTF!! Dude didn't even get a free drink out of it.

 

[JustinInMN]

$2000	50 big bets	400 chips
$2300	58 big bets	460 chips
$4400	110 big bets	880 chips
$4500	112 big bets	900 chips

How much is anyone actually going to lose in one session of limit poker? Aren't most of those chips just sitting on the table for show, since they'll never be bet into a pot and will never change hands?

Having played in this game on occasion, it's crazy loose and aggressive. Pots are frequently 3- and 4-bet widely preflop. $1000 swings are the norm, losing 4-5 racks in a session is not unheard of.

We also have the 5-bet cap in Minnesota instead of 4-bets, so that adds some swing as well.

Most players buy in for $1000-$1500 in this game and are ready to go another $1000 if needed.

 

[Nanook]

...........
How much is anyone actually going to lose in one session of limit poker? Aren't most of those chips just sitting on the table for show, since they'll never be bet into a pot and will never change hands?

If you are insinuating that no one wins or loses much because it is limit, that is not at all right. Just because the bets are capped at $20 (small streets) or $40 (Turn and river bets) does not mean that the game won't get really big and some people won't lose a lot in a session. This was a special game with some special players. One guy started with 2 racks ran it up to 14 racks in 90 minutes and then in the next 3 hours dumped 20 racks for a net -8 racks while I was playing with him & he was still there when I left at 1am

Losing 50+ big bets is running pretty bad, but it definitely happens with some degree of regularity. The really big stacks are typically winnings.

You are right, for a solid winning player losing 50+ Big Bets is a bad session, but it certainly happens and it happens more in wild and crazy games. Of course those are the games where you can win more too.

Uhhhhhh... @detroitdad , @FordPickup92 , @Ben8257 please let this gentleman know how much of that money Rich or Gunny would/could lose if those were their stacks.

In all seriousness. There would be 2 to 4 players (out of 8) that would be moving a good portion of those stacks around on a regular basis at my game. More gambler than poker player in them.

I have never played with Rich or Gunny, but I know the exact kind of player they are because those players exist in our game too. You are going to mostly love having them in the game, but they are not easy to play against and when they get hot, get out of the way because they are going to be winning with a lot of strange 2 pair hands and strange 4 to a straight or 4 flush hands.

Having played in this game on occasion, it's crazy loose and aggressive. Pots are frequently 3- and 4-bet widely preflop. $1000 swings are the norm, losing 4-5 racks in a session is not unheard of.

We also have the 5-bet cap in Minnesota instead of 4-bets, so that adds some swing as well.

Most players buy in for $1000-$1500 in this game and are ready to go another $1000 if needed.

At least 1 or 2 hands per orbit were 5 bet 5 or more ways preflop in this game & I would say 50% of the pots were 2 racks or more. This game was a VERY SPECIAL game with all the right ingredients.

Obviously that guy I mentioned above had a 12 rack upswing and 20 racks down so lots of racks can be won or lost in limit too. I would actually go as far as saying that losing 4-5 racks in a session is fairly common. Of course what is routinely won or lost is going to depend A LOT on the particular game and type of play that is typical in your game or what players happen to be in your game. If the game is a bunch of nits then winning or losing 2 racks is probably going to be a lot, but if there is a lot of GAMBOOOOOOOOL in the game then watch out! It can get expensive & 4 or 5 racks will be somewhat common.

 

[CrazyEddie]

... and this was hold'em? Not some wacky circus game?

I'm impressed at their dedication to throwing away money despite the game's best efforts to stop them.

Around here folks usually pitch limit games as a way to control people's losses, but now I see that limit is actually an ideal game for people who are disappointed that NLHE doesn't let you go all-in on every street.

 

[Nanook]

... and this was hold'em? Not some wacky circus game?

lololol
yes, of course this was fixed limit holdem.

I'm impressed at their dedication to throwing away money despite the game's best efforts to stop them.

yes, some people have an impressive amount of gambol in them!

Around here folks usually pitch limit games as a way to control people's losses, but now I see that limit is actually an ideal game for people who are disappointed that NLHE doesn't let you go all-in on every street.

lol
What most people don't fully understand is that every game has an element of luck and an element of skill. Some games tend toward mostly skill and others are mostly luck. A game like chess (almost all skill) makes for a bad gamboling game as the better player is going to win virtually 100% of the time. Think about your own desire to play a chess master for money, right? Assuming you are not a world class chess player you are not going to do it because you KNOW you have no chance. Poker disguises this better than chess does, but wild carnival games are at one of the spectrum (mostly luck) and nl holdem is at the opposite end of the spectrum for poker. Games with more variance (more luck) generally make for better gamboling games because more people are willing to gambol on something that they have a chance on than on something that they have no chance on.

I get it that a lot of people (me included) would like to take others money as quickly as possible. Don't get me wrong, I would love to play in a really big, say $10/25nl game with lots of donkeys with endlessly deep pockets, but that just does not exist in the real world. In the real world and in most home games you are going to need to avoid having your players lose too much money too fast or they will stop coming. You can choose to either be continually replacing the players that stop coming (which may or may not be possible) or change your game so that no one loses so much that they stop coming. There are really only 2 ways of making it so players don't lose too fast and those are 1) make the stakes smaller or 2) play a game with more variance (more luck vs more skill) and this is exactly where games like limit come into play.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

... and this was hold'em? Not some wacky circus game?

I'm impressed at their dedication to throwing away money despite the game's best efforts to stop them.

Around here folks usually pitch limit games as a way to control people's losses, but now I see that limit is actually an ideal game for people who are disappointed that NLHE doesn't let you go all-in on every street.

That's what I'm kind of hoping to do, but I have serious doubts that it will work. We used to play $1/$2 NLHE, but the game was getting out of hand playing like a $5/$10 game at times.

I lowered the blinds to .50/$1 in hopes of controlling the losses. Now it plays more like a $3/$5 game sometimes, which is a bit of a win I suppose, but a couple players, we'll call them Rich and Gunny to keep them anonymous, still have the urge to blow through 1000 to 2000BBs.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Well the good news is they can only do that with each other's repeated cooperation ("bet!" "raise!" "reraise!" "cap!") and although they might drag some innocent bystanders along with them at first, pretty soon people will learn to get out of the way lest they get whipsawed.

 

[Nanook]

That's what I'm kind of hoping to do, but I have serious doubts that it will work. We used to play $1/$2 NLHE, but the game was getting out of hand playing like a $5/$10 game at times.

I lowered the blinds to .50/$1 in hopes of controlling the losses. Now it plays more like a $3/$5 game sometimes, which is a bit of a win I suppose, but a couple players, we'll call them Rich and Gunny to keep them anonymous, still have the urge to blow through 1000 to 2000BBs.

Here is the thing though....
Every player has a hard stop (permanent quitting point - the "I am quitting for real and never coming back" kind of quitting), but for some that hard stop is a lot different than for others. I'll give 2 examples that are at the opposite end of the spectrum. Player Nitty Ned and Wild Will. If Ned loses $100 more than 2 or 3 times in a row he will stop coming and Will is not only wild gambler, but he also is an attorney that makes a lot of money, is not married and doesn't mind blowing a few thousand every week or two.

You have to read your players and try and figure out where that quitting point is and adjust either the limit, the game or both to suit your crowd so that your players are not busting out for good and never coming back.