Cash Game Pot Limit or Fixed Limit? If fixed, which structure? (2 Viewers)

[Taghkanic]

I don’t enjoy regular limit poker at all, so I’m biased. Pot limit four-card games are a lot more fun. I like a rotation of a round of NLHE then a round of dealer’s choice PLO/PLO8.

The one thing I’d be aware of as a host with PLO/PLO8: If you have even a few loose aggressive players, these games can become extremely swingy. The pots can get huge, fast, and often, even compared to NLHE which my regs seem to play more carefully. Pot limit games seem to bring out the gamble in people. Losses can escalate.

So if I were making your decision, it would have to do mostly with the player pool. Are they big risk takers? Can they sustain wild swings over the course of a long evening? Or they they are just there to get in a certain number of hands and spend a limited amount of money? If the latter, then probably limit games are a better idea.

 

[Ben8257]

Uggh... ocadonal FL is ok, $4/$8 is way too big for me!

I like $.25/$.50 Pot Limit, let's new players see lots of flops for cheap ( the pros will say bad idea and just get you in trouble) but let them get a taste.

Johnny D and Scott play PL and did the last night of the meet up. I am not a play for stacks player and play PL with some crazy groups and usually play all night for less than $200.

Another aspect of FL is that you need a set of chips specifically for that (typically 1,400 - 2,000 $2 plus value chips) playing PL you use your same old chips.

One HUGE vote for pot limit $.25/$.50 or $.50/$.50 since Kevin doesn't like quarters! Lol

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

2022 Alpha Shootout? Why wasn't this on my radar sooner!?!

I'm a bit of a slacker and haven't sent out the official notice yet. It will be Memorial week and will go out this weekend

 

[Rbonus012]

I'm a bit of a slacker and haven't sent out the official notice yet. It will be Memorial week and will go out this weekend

IN!

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

The one thing I’d be aware of as a host with PLO/PLO8: If you have even a few loose aggressive players, these games can become extremely swingy. The pots can get huge, fast, and often, even compared to NLHE which my regs seem to play more carefully. Pot limit games seem to bring out the gamble in people. Losses can escalate.

This is exactly what we experienced. Rob, who is a gambler at heart, had a couple of large pot wins....and then gave it all away in Scarney. He is very loose and very aggressive, so the swings were pretty large.

 

[buzzmonkey]

When I used to go to Foxwoods a couple of times a month I usually played the 4/8 LHE and found that to be a pretty good game most of the time. Typically bought in for $200.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

Uggh... ocadonal FL is ok, $4/$8 is way too big for me!

I like $.25/$.50 Pot Limit, let's new players see lots of flops for cheap ( the pros will say bad idea and just get you in trouble) but let them get a taste.

Johnny D and Scott play PL and did the last night of the meet up. I am not a play for stacks player and play PL with some crazy groups and usually play all night for less than $200.

Another aspect of FL is that you need a set of chips specifically for that (typically 1,400 - 2,000 $2 plus value chips) playing PL you use your same old chips.

One HUGE vote for pot limit $.25/$.50 or $.50/$.50 since Kevin doesn't like quarters! Lol

I agree, $4/$8 might be too big to start out. But pretty much all my peeps would just draw to the end for $.50/$.50. And yes...definitely no quarters...LOL!!

BUT, for large gatherings, i.e., 2022 Alpha Shootout, I think the answer is multiple tables with various limits.

And yes...part of the appeal to me is building a giant limit set. The degen in me can't help it..

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

When I used to go to Foxwoods a couple of times a month I usually played the 4/8 LHE and found that to be a pretty good game most of the time. Typically bought in for $200.

I suspect that's where we will land. I'll start smaller, because most of my players (including me) are brand new to mixed games and to using a limit, but I'm pretty sure we will end up at $4/$8. Thanks.

 

[joepro]

I really like limit structure for circus games, especially if your group is moving from playing exclusively hold’em. It is a much less painful learning experience. But at the same time you need to make sure the pots are big enough to get them excited to play. Our first circus game we played as $2/4 and it sucked. It was way too small. After that we went to $4/8 with a 1/2 kill and have bumped it to $5/10 with a 1/2 kill and that feels much closer (but still smaller) than our regular $1/2 game.

A good rule of thumb is that most decent players in a fixed limit game will win or lose within 25 x the big bet. I think players like @Ben8257 don't realize that 5-10 limit is usually playing smaller than 1-2 no limit.

@Rhodeman77 can you please explain how your kill pots work? I have played games with a kill but it's been a while and I think different places may have different rules. I think those games are usually more fun and with more action.

 

[buzzmonkey]

I suspect that's where we will land. I'll start smaller, because most of my players (including me) are brand new to mixed games and to using a limit, but I'm pretty sure we will end up at $4/$8. Thanks.

It also depends what set you're going to use. If you're using all 1s a 3/6 game could be a better Ice Breaker.

 

[warma]

I’m starting small… 50¢/$1 FL, getting folks to learn the game and the odds. Not sure where we’ll end up, but I expect somewhere between $1/$2 and $4/8.

 

[detroitdad]

It also depends what set you're going to use. If you're using all 1s a 3/6 game could be a better Ice Breaker.

I love using ones for my 3/6 game. I'm going to try and host a limit game at the end of the month. Everyone gets 140 x 1's and the rest in $20.00 plaques. I'll buy in for an unnecessary amount of $500 lol.

 

[detroitdad]

I’m starting small… 50¢/$1 FL, getting folks to learn the game and the odds. Not sure where we’ll end up, but I expect somewhere between $1/$2 and $4/8.

I normally host a .25/.50 with a 100 max buy in. 3/6 plays pretty close to that (maybe a little small). The guys aren't interested in moving to 4/8. Plus I don't want to build another limit set .

 

[Rhodeman77]

A good rule of thumb is that most decent players in a fixed limit game will win or lose within 25 x the big bet. I think players like @Ben8257 don't realize that 5-10 limit is usually playing smaller than 1-2 no limit.

@Rhodeman77 can you please explain how your kill pots work? I have played games with a kill but it's been a while and I think different places may have different rules. I think those games are usually more fun and with more action.

We play almost all split pot games so any scooped out over $xxx dollars triggers the scoop. XXX usually equals 20 chips of whatever size we are playing with that game. $40 with $2 chips or $50 with $2.50 chips.

 

[MrCatPants]

When I converted my group (which at least sounds semi similar to what you describe), when we tried fixed limit they mostly hated it - didn't like not being able to run bluffs/bet strong with the nuts. So instead we dropped blinds and went to .25/.25 pot limit for circus games.

Calling stations will get destroyed in this structure though. Gotta caution them about hand strengths and 'cheap flops' being whole stacks by the river.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I think a lot those type of problems go away when you find the right size game of limit. When it is the turn on a kill pot and there has been a bet and raise to $30 now and I know that means it will be capped if I want to get to the River, which means $60 players start making folds. If everyone just calls instead of raising and capping streets then of course everyone will get to showdown.

Start capping betting rounds and less people get to showdown.

 

[Marius L]

I think a lot those type of problems go away when you find the right size game of limit. When it is the turn on a kill pot and there has been a bet and raise to $30 now and I know that means it will be capped if I want to get to the River, which means $60 players start making folds. If everyone just calls instead of raising and capping streets then of course everyone will get to showdown.

Start capping betting rounds and less people get to showdown.

Considering i just bought a limit set this seems more than a little relevant. What exactly is a kill or half kill?

 

[kirchhausen]

Alright, I have reviewed a number of other threads, and I think I know the answer. But I want to get input from others (especially peeps that have played with us). For those who have not played with us, here is some general information about our game:

• Up until now, we have only played no limit hold em. I recently fell in love with mixed games, so I am looking for the optimal mixed game fixed limit structure.
• NLHE blinds are .50/$1, but the game plays more like a $1/$2 game, and sometime a $3/$5 game. However, the $3/$5 dynamic is ONLY when a hand full of drunk fools show up, and I am not looking to structure a mixed limit game as a drunkfest. So think of it as a $1/$2 NLHE game.
• NLHE buy-ins range from $40 to $200 with the norm being about $100. It is not uncommon for (normal non drunk) players to be in for $300 to $500 total.
• We like action, so I DO NOT want for the game to feel restrictive when we shift to mixed limit games.
• I also do not want for the limit structure to be so low that half the players just chase everything to the river. That crap drives me nuts.
• Please keep in mind that most of my peeps are new to mixed games, so this will be a bit of a learning experience for them as well.

So, @Lil Tuna , @grebe , @FordPickup92 , @Ben0586 , @JRald07 , @Eazy , @detroitdad and others; what game do you think will fit nicely? I'm not looking to tailor this to drunk Gunny and drunk Rich, so you can disregard them from the equation. Not that they won't play, but I just don't want to structure a drunkfest mixed limit game.

I haven't read the rest of the replies yet, but when integrating new games into the mix I feel it is best to start with limit. Pot Limit can get crazy swingy and people can get stacked so quickly, especially in mixed games they are not familiar with. I just think it is better for the game to start fixed limit.

THAT SAID, once your group is familiar enough with the new mixed games, Pot Limit is way more exhilarating.

I voted "Other" on the poll, because a Pink chip $7.50/$15 Limit game is obviously the right answer

 

[kirchhausen]

All kidding aside, Limit plays so much different than NL. A general rule of thumb is your buy-in should be 20 BBs for limit. So if people are used to buying in for $200, 5-10 limit Would be fine. I was semi-joking about 7.5/15 Limit in my last post, but that is about a $300 buy-in, which plays much like $1/$2 NL. If they typically buy-in for $100 at your game, either 2/4 or 3/6 would be close enough.

 

[JustinInMN]

I think even if your blinds are 0.50-1 for NL, if you are doing $200 buy ins, 4/8 limit is probably the right stake. 3/6 if you want to be a little cautious.

My rule of thumb is about 20-25 big-bets in limit is equivalent to a max buy in for NL in evaluating risk. Most limit pots will be at least 5 big-bets, probably more in split pot games and circus games.

So your average pot at 4/8 will probably come in around $40-50 That's what I would expect an average 1-2 NL pot to come to. Since you said your game plays more like 1-2 than 0.50-1 that's probably where you want to be.

"Pot - limit" has more in common with no-limit than fixed limit, but in games like stud, big bet streets are pretty brutal and fixed limit really avoids the situation where a player will put his stack in while still learning a game.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Considering i just bought a limit set this seems more than a little relevant. What exactly is a kill or half kill?

A KILL pot is when the the stakes are raised for a single hand. In a normal hold’em game for example a kill is activated by winning 2 hands in a row by the same player. That player then makes a forced raise the next hand and all the bets are raised.

A full kill doubles the stakes. So a $2/4 game becomes $4/8.
A 1/2 kill in creases by 1/2.

For my game with split pots, scooping a pot is essentially winning 2 pots and activities the kill.

When we play $4/8 it then become $6/12. SB posts $2, the BB posts $4 and the Kill post $6.

 

[joepro]

Considering i just bought a limit set this seems more than a little relevant. What exactly is a kill or half kill?

If a person scoops a lot in a hi lo game over a pre-determined dollar amount, the next hand is a kill pot, meaning that the betting limits double. Half kill means the bets increase by 50%. I think some or all kill games require that the winner of the previous hand must play the kill hand.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

It also depends what set you're going to use. If you're using all 1s a 3/6 game could be a better Ice Breaker.

I'm actually looking for an excuse to build a limit set...LOL. So where I land will dictate the structure of the set. But total agree, 3/6 seems like a good ice breaker.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

I normally host a .25/.50 with a 100 max buy in. 3/6 plays pretty close to that (maybe a little small). The guys aren't interested in moving to 4/8. Plus I don't want to build another limit set .

Wait...so you're saying that your 3/6 limit game plays close to your .25/.50 no limit game? Ooooffff, we definitely need 4/8 if that's the case

 

[Coyote]

PL with a single blind.
Most people nowadays are clueless about Limit, including myself.
Most importantly, limit the buy-in amount (and probably total buy-in per player per session) if you want a game under control, for friendship's sake.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

Thank you everybody, this has been VERY helpful!! I think I am currently at:

• Running various limit structures for large gatherings to meet everybody's needs. .05/.10 fixed limit for @Ben8257 so he and I can focus more on drinking
• For my regular games, starting out with a 3/6 fixed limit structure to suck newbies in without making them feel like they got raked over the coals.
• Eventually, move to a 4/8 structure; at which time I will invest in a dedicated limit set. Although I'm not sure how long I can wait.
• I do fear that there will not be enough of a rush with fixed limit, so may wind up playing pot limit or @Lil Tuna 's recommendation of a spread limit. We'll just have to see how much juice my heroin addict poker peeps need.

Please keep the thought coming and again, thank you all for the help!!

 

[kirchhausen]

Ok one last thread tard vote for PINK CHIP (you can even make this $2.5/$5)

 

[Rhodeman77]

Another option is to put a cap on how much a person can lose in a single hand if you decide to play pot limit. That way when players get much deeper later into the night they can’t lose their stack in hand. The down side of this that people see the cap getting close and and just get to that point on the flop a lot of the time.

For this game something in the range of $80-$100 cap per player would probably work.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

PL with a single blind.
Most people nowadays are clueless about Limit, including myself.
Most importantly, limit the buy-in amount (and probably total buy-in per player per session) if you want a game under control, for friendship's sake.

This is exactly why we moved to a .50/$1 NL game a few years back, but many of my peeps love the rush of winning big (which also comes with losing big). We've been killing each other for years and still talk...LOL...but yes, I am looking to reduce the volatility in wins and losses.

 

[kirchhausen]

Another option is to put a cap on how much a person can lose in a single hand if you decide to play pot limit. That way when players get much deeper later into the night they can’t lose their stack in hand. The down side of this that people see the cap getting close and and just get to that point on the flop a lot of the time.

For this game something in the range of $80-$100!cap per player would probably work.

Yeah my group plays on Poker Mavens sometimes, and we do a rotation mix of Limit and Cap limit. Limit is 3/6 and Cap limit is basically No limit, but with a $50 (or $100) limit per hand. This gets the adrenaline rush out in small doses but lets the game last a long (longer) time.