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Someone please explain the DIBS system here in the Classifieds/m2m (3 Viewers)

ekricket said:
The line for me is when money has been accepted. That’s the thing here, money changed hands. In your car example, say you bought the civic for $1000 and paid cash and signed papers. They tell you they want to wash it and clean it up for you, so you go get some lunch and come back to find that they had an offer that they accepted for $1500 while you were gone so they just tore your contract up and here’s your money back. No harm no foul
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Everyone has their own line, I guess, but the legal standard for where the line is - and accordingly the line that I think most people would expect - is when there is an agreement between the two parties, even before money changes hands. But definitely if money has changed hands then we're well beyond the line, and anyone taking a new offer at that point is reneging on a deal and should at the very least be scorned.

I agree that in your particular case that you described upthread you were done wrong by the seller, and I'm sorry to hear it happened to you.
 
CrazyEddie said:
So naturally when people try to sell chips through the PCF classifieds, they expect the normal terms and conditions to apply, because the PCF-community-specific expectations are not spelled out in the Classified Guidelines post and can only be learned by sticking around long enough
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You were right up to this point, except that "normal" in this community is what the vast majority expects it to be, which seems to be contrary to what you expect it to be. I'm also relatively new here and in the beginning I followed to get a feeling on how things worked and, whaddayknow, I learned it without having seen any bitchings whatsoever! I decided to play by these (unwritten) rules and I'm fine with them. And, whaddayaknow, I can't recall any problems ever until someone broke them. Don't like how things work on PCF? Nobody is forcing you to do business here.
 
stavman said:
The seller needs to be able to accept the deal and be able sell to whomever they want. If I list something for a good deal , I want to make sure it doesn't land in the hands of flipper. I'd rather that item go to someone that is going to use it. That is good for the community.
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If only there were ways in which we as humans could think around how to follow site rules, but also get what we wanted..... ;)

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LeGold said:
You were right up to this point, except that "normal" in this community is what the vast majority expects it to be
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The vast majority of people in this community, sure. The vast minority of people who are trying to join this community having come from outside it, though.

LeGold said:
I'm also relatively new here and in the beginning I followed to get a feeling on how things worked and, whaddayknow, I learned it without having seen any bitchings whatsoever! I decided to play by these (unwritten) rules and I'm fine with them.
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My point isn't that it's impossible for people to figure out the unwritten rules before making a sales post. My point is that it's unreasonable to expect or demand that they figure them out, because they are so contrary to the way things work in the entire rest of the world.

LeGold said:
Don't like how things work on PCF? Nobody is forcing you to do business here.
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That's true, but my point is that things would be better for all of us if we did things differently. There's a reason things like make-me-an-offer are used everywhere, and we'd be better off allowing make-me-an-offer here as well.
 
CrazyEddie said:
That's true, but my point is that things would be better for all of us if we did things differently. There's a reason things like make-me-an-offer are used everywhere, and we'd be better off allowing make-me-an-offer here as well.
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That is your opinion and you're of course entitled to it. There is a reason why what you're suggesting is not allowed anymore (and it has been explained a few times).
 
LeGold said:
That is your opinion and you're of course entitled to it. There is a reason why what you're suggesting is not allowed anymore (and it has been explained a few times).
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I guess you mean these:
RichMahogany said:
Easy to lie about other offers.

Let’s say you offer me $400 for a rack I posted without a price. Easy for me to say I’ve had another offer of $500 hoping to get more money out of you
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BarrieJ3 said:
it’s a closed silent auction. All power to the seller, they can keep going leaving folks in the ditch. Some people may just post every rack or chip they have, only selling when they get a ridiculous or normally unobtainable number. Maybe end up with bloated classified, people’s feelings hurt, etc.
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Josh Kifer said:
Because if the make me an offer process starts, the other two will go away and that'll be the main method. Then all newbs will get no chips unless they wanna overpay. And everyone deserves chips cept Barrie.
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I'll just say I don't find those explanations particularly persuasive, nor particularly explanatory (although I do appreciate everyone offering their comments and perspectives in response to my query).

Whereas this:
Payback said:
We used to allow it, but based on the number of issues that resulted and member feedback that rule changed a couple of years ago. Hence the ending "no longer accepted"
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... is pretty definitive, but also not particularly explanatory, consisting of vague "issues" and "feedback". Obviously there was some drama going on behind the scenes, and probably it's best left buried in the ground. But it doesn't make for a particularly persuasive argument as to why make-me-an-offer should be banned.

If you can point me to any better explanations, I would be quite grateful.
 
CrazyEddie said:
I guess you mean these:




I'll just say I don't find those explanations particularly persuasive, nor particularly explanatory (although I do appreciate everyone offering their comments and perspectives in response to my query).

Whereas this:

... is pretty definitive, but also not particularly explanatory, consisting of vague "issues" and "feedback". Obviously there was some drama going on behind the scenes, and probably it's best left buried in the ground. But it doesn't make for a particularly persuasive argument as to why make-me-an-offer should be banned.

If you can point me to any better explanations, I would be quite grateful.
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Uh. Do you need timestamps? We said there was battles and issues over this. I don't have the time or drive to go thru 6 years of posts to tag the issue and point "See!".

Honestly, I don't care what they do. I can't afford chips anymore. But we take the time to say there were issues and that's why it happened. Past that, whatever. I'm not the PCF sherlock holmes who has the drive to make you a step by step map of why.
 
CrazyEddie said:
I guess you mean these:




I'll just say I don't find those explanations particularly persuasive, nor particularly explanatory (although I do appreciate everyone offering their comments and perspectives in response to my query).

Whereas this:

... is pretty definitive, but also not particularly explanatory, consisting of vague "issues" and "feedback". Obviously there was some drama going on behind the scenes, and probably it's best left buried in the ground. But it doesn't make for a particularly persuasive argument as to why make-me-an-offer should be banned.

If you can point me to any better explanations, I would be quite grateful.
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So what’s the need behind “make me an offer” sales? I think the most likely use case scenario is a seller who wants to gauge the market, and sell to the highest bidder, or some combination of highest-ish bidder and value (whether it’s getting in good graces, getting ahead in a dibs line, etc.)

It’s a blind auction that puts all the power in the hands of one party, the seller. WE’ve actually seen more than once recently where sellers have actually gone out of their way to inflate the interest/price of chips, by privately telling chippers what interest they’ve gotten. I could only see this behavior increasing.

And all of this is besides the point. You can do so many different sales still.

You can run a sale and leave it up for drawing. You can run it with varied prices for varied folks. You can run a sale as a reverse auction. You can run a sale as a buyer names the price. If someone’s looking for a particular way of selling, chances are they can still create that or a similar environment.
 
Josh Kifer said:
Uh. Do you need timestamps? We said there was battles and issues over this. I don't have the time or drive to go thru 6 years of posts to tag the issue and point "See!".

Honestly, I don't care what they do. I can't afford chips anymore. But we take the time to say there were issues and that's why it happened. Past that, whatever. I'm not the PCF sherlock holmes who has the drive to make you a step by step map of why.
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Well said.
Now, help me find the password to my dogewallet, otherwise I won't be coming to the moon :/
 
BarrieJ3 said:
So what’s the need behind “make me an offer” sales? I think the most likely use case scenario is a seller who wants to gauge the market, and sell to the highest bidder, or some combination of highest-ish bidder and value (whether it’s getting in good graces, getting ahead in a dibs line, etc.)
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That sounds about right. Is there some reason that it's bad or wrong for a seller to want to find out how much his chips are worth, and ensure that his chips go to whoever is most willing to offer some value (whether money, chips, or goodwill)?

BarrieJ3 said:
It’s a blind auction that puts all the power in the hands of one party, the seller. WE’ve actually seen more than once recently where sellers have actually gone out of their way to inflate the interest/price of chips, by privately telling chippers what interest they’ve gotten. I could only see this behavior increasing.
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By "privately" do you mean "fraudulently" ? As in the seller lied about receiving other offers?

Okay, sure, I can see that that's antisocial behavior and we'd want to have ways to avoid it from happening. But that can take place in purely private sales as well, sales where the original interest was done via PM rather than in public. Dictating that all offers stemming from a public sale must likewise be in public is unenforceable and largely pointless; liars are gonna lie. Meanwhile eliminating make-me-an-offer sales keeps chips off the market, hinders price discovery, leads to easy abuse and exploitation of infrequent sellers and casual PCF readers, and encourages the development of closed networks.

BarrieJ3 said:
And all of this is besides the point. You can do so many different sales still.

You can run a sale and leave it up for drawing. You can run it with varied prices for varied folks. You can run a sale as a reverse auction. You can run a sale as a buyer names the price. If someone’s looking for a particular way of selling, chances are they can still create that or a similar environment.
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>You can run it with varied prices for varied folks

You can? That seems to run against the whole idea of "Sales ads must include a price".

>You can run a sale as a buyer names the price

Really? That also seems to violate the "must include a price" rule.

And if there are so many different ways to sell, why is the one method that is most flexible, most satisfying to all parties, and most commonly-used everywhere else method banned? It makes no sense.
 
CrazyEddie said:
That sounds about right. Is there some reason that it's bad or wrong for a seller to want to find out how much his chips are worth, and ensure that his chips go to whoever is most willing to offer some value (whether money, chips, or goodwill)?
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We have that option, and much better ways of doing it. Create a post, what are these worth? You’ll get insanely detailed and helpful responses. Or do an auction if you’re looking to sell. Both comprehensive methods in finding out value.
CrazyEddie said:
By "privately" do you mean "fraudulently" ? As in the seller lied about receiving other offers?
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Yup. It’s basically an auction, except again the seller has 100% control of information.

CrazyEddie said:
>You can run it with varied prices for varied folks

You can? That seems to run against the whole idea of "Sales ads must include a price".

>You can run a sale as a buyer names the price

Really? That also seems to violate the "must include a price" rule.

And if there are so many different ways to sell, why is the one method that is most flexible, most satisfying to all parties, and most commonly-used everywhere else method banned? It makes no sense.
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I’ve had everything that can be modded modded. Joke, meme, sale - it’s been deleted. I’m one action that can be interpreted as not following TOS away from being banned per our fearless leaders.

And I’ve done all the above without a second glance. Nothing in rules that says I can’t have a price for jackwagons and one for helpful folks. I’m not quite sure how I got away with name your own price, but maybe that’s the answer, the price was whatever they picked.

Why is one the most prevalent? In my mind, just the easiest for buyer and seller. And when it’s easy, and we don’t change and we don’t interpret, it keeps it pretty “fair”.
 
Is this just a thread for good ideas at this point?

It’s also helpful if you sell for a different price than listed to post that when closing the thread. So that when someone is going back through classifieds to have an idea of price, they can see what was actually paid.

Don’t have to (and I know someone will list the many reasons not to), just another step in having an open honest marketplace.
 
Reading this thread and a few others, I've had a lot of different thoughts run through my mind.

I'm essentially done with the chipping hobby, maybe not forever but certainly for the short/medium term due to life changes. That said, I've been thinking that I'd still come read threads and make the odd post here and there because of how much the hobby has been for me since I started in 2008. All this bickering about money (let's be honest, that really what it's all about now) makes me second guess how much I'd really be hanging out on the forum here.

It's no loss to the forum if I leave, but if some of the knowledgeable old-timers leave due to bickering that would just suck for the community. This place is about poker chips, but so much focus is on the crap that doesn't matter. Let's get back to poker chips!

TLDR; don't do to others that you don't want done to you


P.S. someone please sell me a few Crown Plaza chips that I need, so I can find chipping nirvana:)
 
CrazyEddie said:
Well, I'm hoping that someone might summarize it for me. I've read a LOT of historical posts, but it's not that easy to read five years' worth of sales ads in order to analyze the mostly-unstated drama that eventually led to the current rules.
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The truth is that the classifieds have never worked the way certain members are claiming. Accepting purchase offers by PM that were not posted in the for sale thread happens all the time, and has since the beginning of PCF.

The only reason this ridiculous thread exists is because a few noisy members are upset that they didn’t get their killer deal on some under-priced chips posted by old-time CTers who didn’t know the current market. To those people, sorry you missed out, but there is little use crying about it for days on end.
 

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