Someone please explain the DIBS system here in the Classifieds/m2m (1 Viewer)

[Josh Kifer]

You also forgot (soon to be) bazillions of dollars worth of crypto

Fyp.

 

[CrazyEddie]

If I am spending my time and effort to help people with artwork and run a cards mold group buy for example and then someone goes behind my back after I agree publicly to commit to a purchase so that they can outbid me when I have agreed to some terms then yeah I think that is wrong.

If a seller wants to give you a great deal in recognition of the good things you do for the community, then they should be able to do that. They should be able to post "Selling these chips, make an offer" and then when you send them an offer that's way under the best offer they've already received then they should be able to sell them to you because they appreciate the chip karma that you've earned.

But right now they can't do that. Because of the community's presumption that first-come-first-serve is the right way to sell, and because of the recently-instituted forum rule that ads have to include a sale price and cannot solicit offers.

 

[Josh Kifer]

If a seller wants to give you a great deal in recognition of the good things you do for the community, then they should be able to do that. They should be able to post "Selling these chips, make an offer" and then when you send them an offer that's way under the best offer they've already received then they should be able to sell them to you because they appreciate the chip karma that you've earned.

But right now they can't do that. Because of the community's presumption that first-come-first-serve is the right way to sell, and because of the recently-instituted forum rule that ads have to include a sale price and cannot solicit offers.

.....So they should be able to do an auction....

Because, they can!

 

[CrazyEddie]

Before criticizing it, take some time to try and understand how/why it worked that way and why it worked so well and for so long.

Well, I'm hoping that someone might summarize it for me. I've read a LOT of historical posts, but it's not that easy to read five years' worth of sales ads in order to analyze the mostly-unstated drama that eventually led to the current rules.

 

[72o]

I think you're cool, and I'd let you sign on the front page of my yearbook.....

Be right there!

Actually the cool kids got to sign the back of the yearbook didn't they? The front was for the kids who you knew but didn't really like but wanted signatures anyways so it made you look cooler to everyone else that you had so many "friends" sign your yearbook.

Upon further deliberation, I refuse your offer and counter with "back" of yearbook please. LMK

 

[CrazyEddie]

.....So they should be able to do an auction....

Because, they can!

Auctions have a lot of drawbacks and are not a great solution for everyone. For one thing, they don't allow for any negotiation, and negotiation is at the heart of securing a good and fair deal for all parties. Not every sale is or should be decided on price alone, but auctions force price to be the only factor.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Well, I'm hoping that someone might summarize it for me. I've read a LOT of historical posts, but it's not that easy to read five years' worth of sales ads in order to analyze the mostly-unstated drama that eventually led to the current rules.

I wish it was only five years of drama. This is built off many more years then that. Over multiple websites. And deaths. People have died!

Okay, no one has died.... I made that up....

 

[Josh Kifer]

Be right there!

Actually the cool kids got to sign the back of the yearbook didn't they? The front was for the kids who you knew but didn't really like but wanted signatures anyways so it made you look cooler to everyone else that you had so many "friends" sign your yearbook.

Upon further deliberation, I refuse your offer and counter with "back" of yearbook please. LMK

You can sign on the front cover. I'll bring a felt pen.

 

[Eloe2000]

If a seller wants to give you a great deal in recognition of the good things you do for the community, then they should be able to do that. They should be able to post "Selling these chips, make an offer" and then when you send them an offer that's way under the best offer they've already received then they should be able to sell them to you because they appreciate the chip karma that you've earned.

But right now they can't do that. Because of the community's presumption that first-come-first-serve is the right way to sell, and because of the recently-instituted forum rule that ads have to include a sale price and cannot solicit offers.

I am not looking for a discount. I will settle for people sticking to the terms that they themselves set. But again, my issue is more with the subversive buyer behavior.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Auctions have a lot of drawbacks and are not a great solution for everyone. For one thing, they don't allow for any negotiation, and negotiation is at the heart of securing a good and fair deal for all parties. Not every sale is or should be decided on price alone, but auctions force price to be the only factor.

Why are you arguing for a fair PM deal and saying an auction in public wouldn't be? I mean... To me that's backwards. A fair deal is getting what you want in the classifieds for a listed price, or an auction where everyone gets a chance and there money is all worth the same. (In my opinion)

Agreed! Not every deal is done on price alone. I've sold things in the classifieds and gave the buyer a better deal before. I wanted it to be fair to that person. But putting things in the dark and trying to be fair are polar opposites to me.

 

[72o]

You can sign on the front cover. I'll bring a felt pen.

Hmm do I have cover exclusivity?

 

[Josh Kifer]

Hmm do I have cover exclusivity?

Yes. And spine. And back cover. Go nuts.

 

[Eriks]

Why are you arguing for a fair PM deal and saying an auction in public wouldn't be? I mean... To me that's backwards. A fair deal is getting what you want in the classifieds for a listed price, or an auction where everyone gets a chance and there money is all worth the same. (In my opinion)

Agreed! Not every deal is done on price alone. I've sold things in the classifieds and gave the buyer a better deal before. I wanted it to be fair to that person. But putting things in the dark and trying to be fair are polar opposites to me.

Exactly! I honestly don’t understand this either, please explain what secret PM offers do that public auctions don’t do better? @CrazyEddie

 

[JustinInMN]

Your method is actually promoting a underground chip network, and that in itself would ruin any chances for new members.

I can appreciate this, but at the same time the PCF "community" does a lot of flaming of sellers that is grossly unfair from my observation as well, and a lot of this motivates more closed selling.

Don't misunderstand, sellers closing deals and backing out is a problem that should be outed publicly. That's a real community concern.

However, we then take it a step further to flame sellers for excluding a buyer (which a seller may have good reason to do), or if a seller wants to process splits other than using dibs, or if a seller wants to bypass dibs because the poster is delaying closing the deal. (Which is a blatant abuse of the seller that needs to stop.) Or if a seller wants to name his own price for something, or worse use an auction.

The more the "community" persecutes sellers for trying to sell openly, the less it is going to happen.

 

[72o]

Yes. And spine. And back cover. Go nuts.

Sweet. Dibs. Let me throw my coat on and I’ll be on my way.

 

[CrazyEddie]

Why are you arguing for a fair PM deal and saying an auction in public wouldn't be?

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that auctions are fine, and stated-price first-come-first-serve sales are fine, and also make-me-an-offer sales are fine. Different sellers will want to use different methods, and for that matter so will different buyers. But one of those has been banned here on PCF, for no good reason that I can see.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I can appreciate this, but at the same time the PCF "community" does a lot of flaming of sellers that is grossly unfair from my observation as well, and a lot of this motivates more closed selling.

Don't misunderstand, sellers closing deals and backing out is a problem that should be outed publicly. That's a real community concern.

However, we then take it a step further to flame sellers for excluding a buyer (which a seller may have good reason to do), or if a seller wants to process splits other than using dibs, or if a seller wants to bypass dibs because the poster is delaying closing the deal. (Which is a blatant abuse of the seller that needs to stop.) Or if a seller wants to name his own price for something, or worse use an auction.

The more the "community" persecutes sellers for trying to sell openly, the less it is going to happen.

Like I said, it's a cause and effect. Not saying I know the perfect way, but I'd say our current system works pretty well when people follow it. But people love being sassy lately....

 

[Josh Kifer]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that auctions are fine, and stated-price first-come-first-serve sales are fine, and also make-me-an-offer sales are fine. Different sellers will want to use different methods, and for that matter so will different buyers. But one of those has been banned here on PCF, for no good reason that I can see.

I think it's just a difference of opinion. Because if the make me an offer process starts, the other two will go away and that'll be the main method. Then all newbs will get no chips unless they wanna overpay. And everyone deserves chips cept Barrie.

 

[Jeevansluck]

I think your overestimating "the secret network."

Older members will sell to members who know they are looking. But I don't rank them by seniority. If a newer member has PMed me looking for something and I find it. I sell to them. It's nothing big, I just want the sale to take 5 minutes rather then take 2-3 days and answer 20 questions. But that's the advantage of doing WTBs and PMing people in the market. I get PMs about solids 2-3 times a week (including today).

My list of people to PM every 3 days looking for chips :

1. Josh Kifer
2. .............

 

[CrazyEddie]

I think it's just a difference of opinion. Because if the make me an offer process starts, the other two will go away and that'll be the main method. Then all newbs will get no chips unless they wanna overpay. And everyone deserves chips cept Barrie.

While I see your concern, color me very skeptical that it would lead to the death of the other two sales methods.

 

[upNdown]

All I’ve got is a big fat MEH.
With the inflated prices and the members with deep pockets and the shenanigans and the PM only people, I’ve just come to terms with the idea that there’s nothing in the classifieds for me.

 

[Josh Kifer]

While I see your concern, color me very skeptical that it would lead to the death of the other two sales methods.

This is where I'd say trust us, but you don't. And that's okay. We've been doing this dumb hobby for way too long. But again, everyone has there own journey here and hopefully it's a good one.

 

[CrazyEddie]

This is where I'd say trust us, but you don't. And that's okay. We've been doing this dumb hobby for way too long. But again, everyone has there own journey here and hopefully it's a good one.

The one observation I have from my limited time here - coupled with as much historical reading as I can do - is that the hobby is changing. And that's not me saying it... that's a lot of people saying it, people who would know.

 

[ekricket]

If a seller wants to give you a great deal in recognition of the good things you do for the community, then they should be able to do that. They should be able to post "Selling these chips, make an offer" and then when you send them an offer that's way under the best offer they've already received then they should be able to sell them to you because they appreciate the chip karma that you've earned.

But right now they can't do that. Because of the community's presumption that first-come-first-serve is the right way to sell, and because of the recently-instituted forum rule that ads have to include a sale price and cannot solicit offers.

The line for me is when money has been accepted. That’s the thing here, money changed hands. In your car example, say you bought the civic for $1000 and paid cash and signed papers. They tell you they want to wash it and clean it up for you, so you go get some lunch and come back to find that they had an offer that they accepted for $1500 while you were gone so they just tore your contract up and here’s your money back. No harm no foul

 

[Josh Kifer]

The one observation I have from my limited time here - coupled with as much historical reading as I can do - is that the hobby is changing. And that's not me saying it... that's a lot of people saying it, people who would know.

Hobby's always been changing. Do you trust the historians or the dude in the subway with the bullhorn yelling about the change?

 

[stavman]

I guess it's just something with chips that's different then my other hobbies. I very rarely see people get upset about want went on in the classified section. Unless someone is losing product or money to a bad actor.

IMO the community created an a system the favors only buyers, especially ones that the free time to refresh this site all the time. Sellers are shamed if they do not follow this process. The seller needs to be able to accept the deal and be able sell to whomever they want. If I list something for a good deal , I want to make sure it doesn't land in the hands of flipper. I'd rather that item go to someone that is going to use it. That is good for the community.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

If I list something for a good deal , I want to make sure it doesn't land in the hands of flipper. I'd rather that item go to someone that is going to use it. That is good for the community.

If you want these things then put them in the sales thread. It’s been done before and no one has had an issue with it.

 

[CrazyEddie]

If you want these things then put them in the sales thread. It’s been done before and no one has had an issue with it.

The problem is that these things are the default expectation of everyone except PCF members. These things are the way that normal sales are transacted, and are supported by the existing legal infrastructure in which advertisements are not offers, they are invitations to make offers.

So naturally when people try to sell chips through the PCF classifieds, they expect the normal terms and conditions to apply, because the PCF-community-specific expectations are not spelled out in the Classified Guidelines post and can only be learned by sticking around long enough to see someone break those norms and then get accused of being an untrustworthy cheat. So they don't even think to include such basic caveats in their posts such as "I'll entertain better offers if anyone wants to make one" and "I'll pick a buyer that best meets my needs, such as buying the entire lot rather than asking for just a part of it" because of course those terms would apply, they apply everywhere. Everywhere except here.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

The problem is that these things are the default expectation of everyone except PCF members. These things are the way that normal sales are transacted, and are supported by the existing legal infrastructure in which advertisements are not offers, they are invitations to make offers.

So naturally when people try to sell chips through the PCF classifieds, they expect the normal terms and conditions to apply, because the PCF-community-specific expectations are not spelled out in the Classified Guidelines post and can only be learned by sticking around long enough to see someone break those norms and then get accused of being an untrustworthy cheat. So they don't even think to include such basic caveats in their posts such as "I'll entertain better offers if anyone wants to make one" and "I'll pick a buyer that best meets my needs, such as buying the entire lot rather than asking for just a part of it" because of course those terms would apply, they apply everywhere. Everywhere except here.

I’d argue people’s “expectations” differ a lot and this thread is a perfect example of that. It’s easier to say what expectations you have as the seller than just assume everyone should share your expectations. Doing so can avoid a lot of the disagreements and is exactly why we have a specific template for auctions which has been successful in decreasing the auction drama significantly.

 

[johnjohn]