Tough river spot in deepstacked $.50/$1 (Mavens) (2 Viewers)

[Senzrock]

ACTION CONTINUES:

Game: NL Hold'em (80 - 200) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Mavens
Table: Mixed 0.50/1.00 6-Max (NL + PLO)

Seat 3, UTG: Hero ($532.75) holding []
Button: Villain ($797.25)

Action:
Hero raises to 3
Folds to button
Villain raises to $10.50
Folds back to hero, I call $10.50.

Context: This is a fairly loose/fun Superbowl home game, sitting 6-handed, no rake. Players are overall average to slightly below average NL players. I consider myself quite a bit better than every player at the table, and deep-stacked I am looking for excuses to play hands in many situations. Preflop, it's a loose call, especially out of position. Generally a pretty -EV call but again, due to stack depths and skill advantage, I don't mind playing a few speculative hands here, leaning on my experience to get away cheap or win a big hand. For those pointing out that this is an easy fold - I generally agree with you, but again understanding the dynamics, I think this is an OK call.

** Flop ** []

I decide to check-raise the flop feeling like this solidly smacks my range, and that I can probably get AK to fold here and take it down. Additionally, if villain has a hand like AA/KK, he is kind of handcuffed here and will have to play future streets more passively. My plan if villain smooth calls, since it pretty much caps his range, was to barrel him off of AA/KK (figuring that we were in fact deep stacked enough for this to be a viable strategy). While players understand me as an aggressive player, they rarely see me check-raise, bomb, bomb without at least two pair here so I would be counting on fold equity.

Hero checks
Villain bets $15 into $22 pot.
Hero raises to $41.25
Villain calls

** Turn ** [] (Pot is $105)

Hero bets $62
Villain thinks for 15 seconds, then calls.

Given my thought process, I decide to bet a healthy amount on the turn, looking to set up a potential river shove/over bet that will be too painful for villain to call off with any single pair. I felt like $62 achieved this purpose. It looks very strong, and could/should be perceived as a value bet given the blank turn. While the turn did bring in a second flush draw, it was about as much of a brick as it could have been. In game, I felt like my opponent was definitely considering folding here. While he did end up calling, I was feeling good about following it up with a potential river bomb. Think about if you are in villains shoes here with AA - are you calling 100%, 75%, 50% or are you leaning towards a fold at this point in the hand knowing a big bet may well be coming on the river? Is this just too ambitious?

 

[Kain8]

It really comes down to the folding ability of the villain for hands like this.

Are they married to overpairs no matter what? If they are, then trying to bet them off of one is foolish. The only better hand you can make fold with a turn lead is exactly Aces. That's also IF they're capable of doing so.

A turn call isn't surprising since your bet, and the pot itself, are both pretty large for the stakes now. We really haven't narrowed down anything by having the turn go bet/call as far as the villain's range of holdings.

Buckle up for the river.

 

[Senzrock]

ACTION CONTINUES:

Game: NL Hold'em (80 - 200) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Mavens
Table: Mixed 0.50/1.00 6-Max (NL + PLO)

Seat 3, UTG: Hero ($532.75) holding []
Button: Villain ($797.25)

Action:
Hero raises to 3
Folds to button
Villain raises to $10.50
Folds back to hero, I call $10.50.

Context: This is a fairly loose/fun Superbowl home game, sitting 6-handed, no rake. Players are overall average to slightly below average NL players. I consider myself quite a bit better than every player at the table, and deep-stacked I am looking for excuses to play hands in many situations. Preflop, it's a loose call, especially out of position. Generally a pretty -EV call but again, due to stack depths and skill advantage, I don't mind playing a few speculative hands here, leaning on my experience to get away cheap or win a big hand. For those pointing out that this is an easy fold - I generally agree with you, but again understanding the dynamics, I think this is an OK call.

** Flop ** []

I decide to check-raise the flop feeling like this solidly smacks my range, and that I can probably get AK to fold here and take it down. Additionally, if villain has a hand like AA/KK, he is kind of handcuffed here and will have to play future streets more passively. My plan if villain smooth calls, since it pretty much caps his range, was to barrel him off of AA/KK (figuring that we were in fact deep stacked enough for this to be a viable strategy). While players understand me as an aggressive player, they rarely see me check-raise, bomb, bomb without at least two pair here so I would be counting on fold equity.

Hero checks
Villain bets $15 into $22 pot.
Hero raises to $41.25
Villain calls

** Turn ** [] (Pot is $105)

Hero bets $62
Villain thinks for 15 seconds, then calls.

Given my thought process, I decide to bet a healthy amount on the turn, looking to set up a potential river shove/over bet that will be too painful for villain to call off with any single pair. I felt like $62 achieved this purpose. It looks very strong, and could/should be perceived as a value bet given the blank turn. While the turn did bring in a second flush draw, it was about as much of a brick as it could have been. In game, I felt like my opponent was definitely considering folding here. While he did end up calling, I was feeling good about following it up with a potential river bomb. Think about if you are in villains shoes here with AA - are you calling 100%, 75%, 50% or are you leaning towards a fold at this point in the hand knowing a big bet may well be coming on the river? Is this just too ambitious?

** River** [] (Pot is $230)
Action to Hero (?)

The runout more or less bricks out, with backdoor hearts coming in. AKhh or AThh are options for villain here as played, but less likely that the aforementioned overpairs. I hold the Q of hearts so AQhh or KQhh are not in villains holdings. Do we need to be worried about the backdoor? Are we even more confident with our Qh to keep bluffing the river to try and get AA/KK/KQ to fold?

 

[cosmokramer]

This hand is a prime example why a lot of pros call Q10o the most overrated/overplayed hand by bad/half-skilled amateurs, and why I personally hate it even more than JJ. No offense and not directed at you.

Its a fold UTG pre, even more so facing a reraise. And its definitley -EV, irrespective of position. But you heard that already

Anyway, there you are, interesting to see how it plays out.

 

[Mojo1312]

** River** [] (Pot is $230)
Action to Hero (?)

The runout more or less bricks out, with backdoor hearts coming in. AKhh or AThh are options for villain here as played, but less likely that the aforementioned overpairs. I hold the Q of hearts so AQhh or KQhh are not in villains holdings. Do we need to be worried about the backdoor? Are we even more confident with our Qh to keep bluffing the river to try and get AA/KK/KQ to fold?

Tough spot.

 

[Eriks]

There’re some serious 2009 Tom Dwany things going on in here. Cool hand!

 

[Senzrock]

There’re some serious 2009 Tom Dwany things going on in here. Cool hand!

 

[Eriks]

Weird hand, for sure!

 

[BigOlPapaBear]

Not sure villain will fold anything on that river that you're not already beating - potting or shoving would be an expensive way to confirm that he can't lay down an overpair.

I would check->call/fold depending on bet size you face, or if you're determined to keep firing then lead for 1/5 or 1/4 pot but fold to a raise.

 

[Senzrock]

Not sure villain will fold anything on that river that you're not already beating - potting or shoving would be an expensive way to confirm that he can't lay down an overpair.

I would check->call/fold depending on bet size you face, or if you're determined to keep firing then lead for 1/5 or 1/4 pot but fold to a raise.

Yeah, the thesis of this line, and I guess the narrative of this hand more broadly, is that many players *can* fold an overpair to big pressure more than 40% of the time (which is all I need for this to be profitable). What hands would he raise me on this river with do you think? Just AK/AThh (?)

 

[kmccormick100]

If you’re intent upon continuing to turn your hand into a bluff then I guess you have to bet, something like 40-50% pot looks pretty value-y and is a big bet for this game anyway.

Personally I’m probably checking at this point and hoping to get a check back and win against AK. If you check and villain bets it skews his range to missed clubs or QQ, JJ and Axhh for value. Figure out how many combos of each he could have and what kind of a price he’s laying with his bet. I’m probably folding though, as his combos skew towards value if he bets I think.

 

[Senzrock]

If you’re intent upon continuing to turn your hand into a bluff then I guess you have to bet, something like 40-50% pot looks pretty value-y and is a big bet for this game anyway.

Personally I’m probably checking at this point and hoping to get a check back and win against AK. If you check and villain bets it skews his range to missed clubs or QQ, JJ and Axhh for value. Figure out how many combos of each he could have and what kind of a price he’s laying with his bet. I’m probably folding though, as his combos skew towards value if he bets I think.

I like this thinking a lot!

 

[Legend5555]

I have a hard time wanting to comment on this hand given that you basically conceded that you were doing things poorly on purpose under the guise that you could overcome your positional and range disadvantage using skill alone.

While this may work out every now and then, it's just long term losing almost no matter what unless you are playing against some of the literal worst players ever.

So to me it reads much more like, "I just wanted to goof around and have fun trying to pull a play." And because of that, it essentially voids real strategy discussion. We all do stuff like this from time to time, nothing wrong with it. But asking for advice on how to play a hand you are purposely playing in a bad way is just not really possible.

Not saying any of this to be antagonistic. Just saying I can't give advice on such a hand.

 

[Senzrock]

I have a hard time wanting to comment on this hand given that you basically conceded that you were doing things poorly on purpose under the guise that you could overcome your positional and range disadvantage using skill alone.

While this may work out every now and then, it's just long term losing almost no matter what unless you are playing against some of the literal worst players ever.

So to me it reads much more like, "I just wanted to goof around and have fun trying to pull a play." And because of that, it essentially voids real strategy discussion. We all do stuff like this from time to time, nothing wrong with it. But asking for advice on how to play a hand you are purposely playing in a bad way is just not really possible.

Not saying any of this to be antagonistic. Just saying I can't give advice on such a hand.

I hear where you're coming from, but I don't think this is the spirit in which I posted this hand. I believe I have (or have at least tried to), show what my thought process was and why I believe this to be a *profitable* play. I am not one to "goof around" with several hundred dollars, so believe me, I am taking this seriously. My sense is, and I could be wrong, but my sense is that if you were my opponent holding AA in this spot, you might be inclined to fold either flop, turn, or potentially river at some non-trivial frequency - is that not accurate? Do you not pick a certain % of hands per session to "merge" into a bluff when an opponent's range is capped? I totally understand when you say "well as played, I have a tough time commentating on it because I personally would not have played it like this" or "I think this is not an optimal line" - but I would hope you give me a little more credit that "this is just you goofing around so I can't take it seriously."

 

[kmccormick100]

I hear where you're coming from, but I don't think this is the spirit in which I posted this hand. I believe I have (or have at least tried to), show what my thought process was and why I believe this to be a *profitable* play. I am not one to "goof around" with several hundred dollars, so believe me, I am taking this seriously. My sense is, and I could be wrong, but my sense is that if you were my opponent holding AA in this spot, you might be inclined to fold either flop, turn, or potentially river at some non-trivial frequency - is that not accurate? Do you not pick a certain % of hands per session to "merge" into a bluff when an opponent's range is capped? I totally understand when you say "well as played, I have a tough time commentating on it because I personally would not have played it like this" or "I think this is not an optimal line" - but I would hope you give me a little more credit that "this is just you goofing around so I can't take it seriously."

I’m not in the habit of trying to bluff people off of aces personally, most players tend to get irrationally attached to them, particularly losing players.

 

[Senzrock]

I’m not in the habit of trying to bluff people off of aces personally, most players tend to get irrationally attached to them, particularly losing players.

Agreed. And with shallower stacks, I think this is just a standard fold pre or check-call/check-call/check-evaluate spot, but I thought this hand was a good candidate to be "creative". Also, we don't know for sure he has AA of course, although evidence suggests that something like AA/KK is highly likely.

 

[Eriks]

I hear where you're coming from, but I don't think this is the spirit in which I posted this hand. I believe I have (or have at least tried to), show what my thought process was and why I believe this to be a *profitable* play. I am not one to "goof around" with several hundred dollars, so believe me, I am taking this seriously. My sense is, and I could be wrong, but my sense is that if you were my opponent holding AA in this spot, you might be inclined to fold either flop, turn, or potentially river at some non-trivial frequency - is that not accurate? Do you not pick a certain % of hands per session to "merge" into a bluff when an opponent's range is capped? I totally understand when you say "well as played, I have a tough time commentating on it because I personally would not have played it like this" or "I think this is not an optimal line" - but I would hope you give me a little more credit that "this is just you goofing around so I can't take it seriously."

I would certainly consider folding aces in villain’s shoes but if there’s one thing I’ve learned the hard way it’s that people tend to get married to these great pf hands and have a hard time letting them go postflop regardless if they ”should” or not. I believe you will get looked up here more often than you think

 

[Senzrock]

I would certainly consider folding aces in villain’s shoes but if there’s one thing I’ve learned the hard way it’s that people tend to get married to these great pf hands and have a hard time letting them go postflop regardless if they ”should” or not. I believe you will get looked up here more often than you think

Certainly a theme here in terms of the feedback, and one I agree with. A good lesson to keep in mind for all of us, certain players will refuse to give up on AA no matter what happens (I do believe, as I think I said, that I felt that this player was in fact someone who could give up on them).

 

[Eriks]

Certainly a theme here in terms of the feedback, and one I agree with. A good lesson to keep in mind for all of us, certain players will refuse to give up on AA no matter what happens (I do believe, as I think I said, that I felt that this player was in fact someone who could give up on them).

Well, if there is a place for it it’s certainly this deep. Blocking QQ and villain more likely to hold KK/AA than JJ. AKhh is not impossible as you mentioned though, makes perfect sense to peel your flop raise with gutter, overs and bd fd. I don’t know, I probably open fold pre

 

[Mojo1312]

Villain's hand is fairly polarized. Kings/AK. Ripe for a third barrel.

Is he capable of making a Hero call with top pair? Perhaps.

As played, with stacks this deep, a c-bet is in order.

 

[Senzrock]

OK Let's wrap this bad boy up:

ACTION CONTINUES:

Game: NL Hold'em (80 - 200) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Mavens
Table: Mixed 0.50/1.00 6-Max (NL + PLO)

Seat 3, UTG: Hero ($532.75) holding []
Button: Villain ($797.25)

Action:
Hero raises to 3
Folds to button
Villain raises to $10.50
Folds back to hero, I call $10.50.

Context: This is a fairly loose/fun Superbowl home game, sitting 6-handed, no rake. Players are overall average to slightly below average NL players. I consider myself quite a bit better than every player at the table, and deep-stacked I am looking for excuses to play hands in many situations. Preflop, it's a loose call, especially out of position. Generally a pretty -EV call but again, due to stack depths and skill advantage, I don't mind playing a few speculative hands here, leaning on my experience to get away cheap or win a big hand. For those pointing out that this is an easy fold - I generally agree with you, but again understanding the dynamics, I think this is an OK call.

** Flop ** []

I decide to check-raise the flop feeling like this solidly smacks my range, and that I can probably get AK to fold here and take it down. Additionally, if villain has a hand like AA/KK, he is kind of handcuffed here and will have to play future streets more passively. My plan if villain smooth calls, since it pretty much caps his range, was to barrel him off of AA/KK (figuring that we were in fact deep stacked enough for this to be a viable strategy). While players understand me as an aggressive player, they rarely see me check-raise, bomb, bomb without at least two pair here so I would be counting on fold equity.

Hero checks
Villain bets $15 into $22 pot.
Hero raises to $41.25
Villain calls

** Turn ** [] (Pot is $105)

Hero bets $62
Villain thinks for 15 seconds, then calls.

Given my thought process, I decide to bet a healthy amount on the turn, looking to set up a potential river shove/over bet that will be too painful for villain to call off with any single pair. I felt like $62 achieved this purpose. It looks very strong, and could/should be perceived as a value bet given the blank turn. While the turn did bring in a second flush draw, it was about as much of a brick as it could have been. In game, I felt like my opponent was definitely considering folding here. While he did end up calling, I was feeling good about following it up with a potential river bomb. Think about if you are in villains shoes here with AA - are you calling 100%, 75%, 50% or are you leaning towards a fold at this point in the hand knowing a big bet may well be coming on the river? Is this just too ambitious?

** River** [] (Pot is $230)
Action to Hero (?)

The runout more or less bricks out, with backdoor hearts coming in. AKhh or AThh are options for villain here as played, but less likely that the aforementioned overpairs. I hold the Q of hearts so AQhh or KQhh are not in villains holdings. Do we need to be worried about the backdoor? Are we even more confident with our Qh to keep bluffing the river to try and get AA/KK/KQ to fold?

River Action/Thoughts:
At this point, I have a bit of a change of heart. Maybe it's the fact that it feels like it will take $150+ to get villain off top pair here, maybe it's because I am holding out hope that AK or clubs could just check behind here, maybe it's that I didn't like the backdoor hearts, but I decide to check this river.

Pot: $230
Hero Checks
Villain bets $155

Now I'm very confused. I was not expecting a river bet from villain here! Did he back into hearts? Was he slow playing a set and getting value here? Set doesn't seem like it makes much sense. The turn made this the wettest board of all time, feels like he would have just put in the raise there. Did he end up making an ambitious call with AK on the flop/turn and is now turning his hand into a bluff or did he miss clubs? The bet feels odd because it seems like he would check behind AA/KK/KQ at this point. He might even go so far as to check behind a hand like 99/JJ. How many value hands does he have when he absolutely bombs this river after having played the other streets relatively passively? Can I call here? Fold? Check-Raise like a fuckin boss??

 

[Kain8]

Check-Raise like a fuckin boss??

 

[Legend5555]

I hear where you're coming from, but I don't think this is the spirit in which I posted this hand. I believe I have (or have at least tried to), show what my thought process was and why I believe this to be a *profitable* play. I am not one to "goof around" with several hundred dollars, so believe me, I am taking this seriously. My sense is, and I could be wrong, but my sense is that if you were my opponent holding AA in this spot, you might be inclined to fold either flop, turn, or potentially river at some non-trivial frequency - is that not accurate? Do you not pick a certain % of hands per session to "merge" into a bluff when an opponent's range is capped? I totally understand when you say "well as played, I have a tough time commentating on it because I personally would not have played it like this" or "I think this is not an optimal line" - but I would hope you give me a little more credit that "this is just you goofing around so I can't take it seriously."

Do you really think you can make this spot profitable though? QTo, OOP, against a 3 bettor? Also, why even put yourself in a spot this tough in the first place? It just feels like you are trying to make a play because you think you can narrow your opponents range down A LOT. But how often are you going to get a flop that you either can go for value on, or can start a multi street plan to blow your opponent off of his hand? It just feels like your really stretching. Again, your opponent would need to be very bad for this to pan out favorably in the long run.

If this had been QTs, then I'm on board with calling pre. You have way more playability and equity on more boards. But I think you are looking at this hand with a bit of results oriented thinking because the board came so scary for AA, KK, and AK and you happen to have blockers to top set and the straight. You happened to luck into a board where you have credible nut hands and strong draws against a narrow range. But you basically decided to go for broke during much of this hand for no real good reason, and you even acknowledged that at the start. You are putting yourself into an intentionally very difficult spot by calling pre when there is just absolutely no need to do so. Even if it is profitable, and I'm not convinced it is, is it really worth how difficult it can be?

 

[Senzrock]

is it really worth how difficult it can be?

Yes! If I win this pot and make ~$110, in a spot where I know where I'm at and push myself to follow through with a good 3-barreling spot - definitely worth it! I guess I don't understand the thinking of "is it worth it?" - like do you mean the anxiety of playing a hand like this? I am playing, after all, to win $ (and, yes, occasionally to challenging myself by mixing in lines that I would generally not take to keep my opponents off balance).

If I only took this line when I had a set of 9s (which, I would do the exact same thing with), and only check-called, check-called/folded when I had one pair+draw etc, you do realize how easy I would be to play against right? Even if I bluff and get called, there can be huge profitability in the fact that my opponents know I am capable of anything and don't just peddle the nuts. I think you and I (respectfully) might just have different philosophies on how to "balance" our ranges/hands and what the "value" of bluffing in certain spots are. Again, this is not my "standard" approach. This is a hand that I found interesting, in part because I deviate from the "standard" play. But I have found that making $ in poker, means that you must push yourself past those comfort zones and mix up your play (while having a solid foundation). I still appreciate all of your thoughts, I am not taking your feedback personally, I just hope you can see what I am bringing to the table with my thoughts.

 

[Daniel Albarran]

Rough spot. Worst hand he could have is AQ, but would he value bet it? Probably not. He could've stuck around with the Ah10h. Doesn't look like he's bluffing, I feel your check should confuse him. I'm putting him on AA, KK or the backdoor flush with A10.

 

[Legend5555]

Yes! If I win this pot and make ~$110, in a spot where I know where I'm at and push myself to follow through with a good 3-barreling spot - definitely worth it! I guess I don't understand the thinking of "is it worth it?" - like do you mean the anxiety of playing a hand like this? I am playing, after all, to win $ (and, yes, occasionally to challenging myself by mixing in lines that I would generally not take to keep my opponents off balance).

If I only took this line when I had a set of 9s (which, I would do the exact same thing with), and only check-called, check-called/folded when I had one pair+draw etc, you do realize how easy I would be to play against right? Even if I bluff and get called, there can be huge profitability in the fact that my opponents know I am capable of anything and don't just peddle the nuts. I think you and I (respectfully) might just have different philosophies on how to "balance" our ranges/hands and what the "value" of bluffing in certain spots are. Again, this is not my "standard" approach. This is a hand that I found interesting, in part because I deviate from the "standard" play. But I have found that making $ in poker, means that you must push yourself past those comfort zones and mix up your play (while having a solid foundation). I still appreciate all of your thoughts, I am not taking your feedback personally, I just hope you can see what I am bringing to the table with my thoughts.

You must have better hands in your range to do this with than QTo as a bluff presumably. Your range here can't be super wide or you are just calling with too many hands pre. And certainly you have better hands to bluff with than QTo. You can't really make a nut hand here. Nor one you can even get massive value with if you do hit. So you are specifically looking only for a fold, or since you have a pair, possibly a check down on river. You don't have to have that many bluffs here that you need to use QTo as one of them, especially from OOP.

Plus you can't look at this spot only from post flop. Sure, now that you are in this spot you have to figure out a way to try and play profitably. I'm not convinced that you can overcome the disadvantage of having called pre here though no matter how well you play this post.

We aren't computers. We can't know that playing a subpar hand in a given spot will be profitable. So my "is it worth it" is in reference to the fact that we clearly as human beings avoid certain very marginal +EV situations like this because playing them well enough to actual profit long term is too difficult. Youtube put yourself in an very difficult to play spot on purpose. And that just doesn't seem like a great idea unless you are doing it to see if you can prevail. And that to me seems like losing money on purpose as I don't think you can expect to be profitable here long term.

 

[BigOlPapaBear]

Now I'm very confused. I was not expecting a river bet from villain here! Did he back into hearts? Was he slow playing a set and getting value here? Set doesn't seem like it makes much sense. The turn made this the wettest board of all time, feels like he would have just put in the raise there. Did he end up making an ambitious call with AK on the flop/turn and is now turning his hand into a bluff or did he miss clubs? The bet feels odd because it seems like he would check behind AA/KK/KQ at this point. He might even go so far as to check behind a hand like 99/JJ. How many value hands does he have when he absolutely bombs this river after having played the other streets relatively passively? Can I call here? Fold? Check-Raise like a fuckin boss??

Fold, unless you want to make a self-harming Jamie Gold High Stakes Poker type call... (currently re-watching HSP s4 while I Zwift and God...he's annoying).

For context, how many beers had you had when you played this hand?

 

[Legend5555]

I'm actually somewhat thinking you are not the hero in this hand.

 

[Senzrock]

I'm actually somewhat thinking you are not the hero in this hand.

That would be interesting, but I definitely am! For better or for worse...

 

[DrStrange]

It is often interesting and educational to run the same hand again from the other point of view. Villains and Heroes sometimes have very different perspectives. Even third party points of view can be divergent from the main actors.