What a joke! (2 Viewers)

[JMC9389]

Just banning straight first-come/first-served dibs sales altogether solves the problem, imo. Allow only two types of PCF sales:

• public-bid auction, with a listed opening bid price -- awarded to the highest bidder after a time period specified in the ad
• public-drawing sale, with a listed fixed-price (total or per-item) -- awarded to a random winner chosen from pool of committed buyers after a specified time

Everything is understood up-front and transparent at every stage of the transactions with either sale. No behind-the-scenes offers allowed, and sellers and buyers/bidders who don't follow up with the sale and/or purchase are subsequently barred from using the classifieds.

And ditch the trade listing ad option altogether -- just maintain a single read-only thread for listing all items offered for trade, and interested traders can contact each other via private conversation to arrange details. Still allow WTB ads, but they must contain a willing-to-pay price (which can vary across quantity and condition variables).

End of drama. Don't want to be publicly identified as a buyer? Then the free and open community-based PCF chip sales forum isn't for you -- use eBay if you want anonymity. Don't have time to run an auction or random-buyer sale? Ditto -- plenty of opportunity to sell elsewhere.

This is -- and can still be -- an open community of good chippers, for the good of all chippers. No secrets, no cut-throat behaviors, and treating each other like friends instead of customers or marks are the start of the return to normalcy around here.

I'm coming around to this. I also like the "asshat clause" that @Windwalker started. The above, plus add the asshat clause. Known asshats to the seller are automatically disqualified from the seller's sales and at the discretion of the seller. Don't want to have the asshat clause invoked? Don't act like one

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

I may be off base here and I have no dog in these fights but IIRC the "Offers by PM no longer acceptable." term was added because folks were putting no price at all in their WTS ads. "Here are the chips I have, just send me offers". Didn't mean someone couldn't send an offer (higher or lower) it just further reinforced that a price was required in the ad.

What action/situation was it meant to prevent though? If nothing, why create the rule?

I’m sure it was intended to help prevent something from happening but if by the letter of the rule, everyone now just puts “100 RCVL $5s for $1shipped” and then accepts PM offers for higher prices, it’s no longer a functional rule.

 

[ekricket]

What is the intent of that rule though? I’m sure it was intended to help prevent something from happening but if everyone now just puts “100 RCVL $5s for $1shipped” and then accepts PM offers for higher prices, what is it helping to prevent?

After about 6 months of no public sale price info - what becomes a fair offer? Who knows “fmv” anymore? You just start out with lowball offers then and work your way up in the silent auction I guess

 

[BGinGA]

In another thread there is some discussion and confusion on this point highlighted below. It appears to me to just reference “PM only” sales threads, but it doesn’t appear 100% clear. Can you help us with some clarity?

View attachment 631526

I am not a site admin and have no authority in these matters, but it was my understanding that the referenced guideine was altered to a) require that all WTS ads contain a fixed sales price, and b) eliminate ads that simply requested that offers be sent to the seller privately.

 

[Nanook]

I’ve also said this I the other thread. This is the ONLY place that has this strange dibs system. In any other forum or community that I’ve been a part of something is posted and the deal is done via PM.

I was going to say this exact same thing. I feel strongly that the "dibs" system that is in place here is the cause of the vast majority of the problems. All this is doing is pissing people off for various reasons and is completely unnecessary.

There is more animosity here and more arguments here than I have seem on all other forums that I have been involved with combined. This whole dibs thing is ridiculous and should be done away with immediately. No where else do you have the dibs system and no where else do you have all this bickering. I am quite active several other forums, but I will give one example: I am on WatchUSeek (WUS) which is a watch forum and most on there are talking about and buying and selling watches that sell for many multiples of what the biggest & most expensive sets sell for here. That community has 430,000 members which is roughly 43x the number of members that are here. I am quite certain that some members there are profiting far more from buying and selling expensive watches than anyone ever does here just because of the higher buy and sell prices. @ WUS there is no dibs system and I basically never see people bitchin about sales threads and people flipping or any of this BS that seems to be just about the only topic around here.

I understand that the dibs system came about to try and make things more fair by making sales more transparent and in the spirit or making things more fair and to try and prevent problems, but it just does the exact opposite. It puts all this toxic waste out in the public and is creating an unfriendly environment.

To who ever runs this place:
You want to encourage a more inviting environment and get rid of a lot of toxic posts and threads, GET RID OF DIBS immediately!

 

[msuroo]

I may be off base here and I have no dog in these fights but IIRC the "Offers by PM no longer acceptable." term was added because folks were putting no price at all in their WTS ads. "Here are the chips I have, just send me offers". Didn't mean someone couldn't send an offer (higher or lower) it just further reinforced that a price was required in the ad.

I’ve also got no dog in these fights, and I have such tremendous respect for you and all of the knowledge that you have provided here (and at PMC and at Keen etc), so don’t take this as any sort of personal argument. But what’s the point of the rule if nothing about it matters? If I could just put a $1 price in all of my sales ads, field PMs, then ultimately decide to sell or not, then we may as well be back to where we started. There’s always going to be exceptions based on location, ignore lists, blacklists/previous bad experiences, but the intention of the rule has got to be if I list at a price, and someone says they will buy at that price, that should be it! I’m not suggesting we should be enforcing sales at gunpoint - we obviously can’t *make* anyone sell chips for a given price - but loss of classifieds privileges doesn’t seem unreasonable. After all, that’s what we do with auction reneges, right?

 

[ekricket]

Here is the new for sale ad

“I have a bunch of poker chips I’d like to sell. I’ve got RHC, THC, and HHR of a bunch of different colors and spot patterns. Please send me a PM with how much money you want to spend and I’ll tell you what chips I will sell you for that amount. I don’t want to split anything though. Thanks!”

 

[Nanook]

Oh, I forgot to mention this about WUS:
In the sales threads there the mods made the sales threads so that only the OP can post. This eliminates all thread crapping publicly. Lets be honest, just about the only thing that people publicly do in someone elses thread is either thread crapping or some meaningless post like "nice chips." There really is no need for people to be posting in the m2m sales threads. All of that stuff can be done via PM and then you eliminate all this toxicity

 

[stavman]

I was going to say this exact same thing. I feel strongly that the "dibs" system that is in place here is the cause of the vast majority of the problems. All this is doing is pissing people off for various reasons and is completely unnecessary.

There is more animosity here and more arguments here than I have seem on all other forums that I have been involved with combined. This whole dibs thing is ridiculous and should be done away with immediately. No where else do you have the dibs system and no where else do you have all this bickering. I am quite active several other forums, but I will give one example: I am on WatchUSeek (WUS) which is a watch forum and most on there are talking about and buying and selling watches that sell for many multiples of what the biggest & most expensive sets sell for here. That community has 430,000 members which is roughly 43x the number of members that are here. I am quite certain that some members there are profiting far more from buying and selling expensive watches than anyone ever does here just because of the higher buy and sell prices. @ WUS there is no dibs system and I basically never see people bitchin about sales threads and people flipping or any of this BS that seems to be just about the only topic around here.

I understand that the dibs system came about to try and make things more fair by making sales more transparent and in the spirit or making things more fair and to try and prevent problems, but it just does the exact opposite. It puts all this toxic waste out in the public and is creating an unfriendly environment.

To who ever runs this place:
You want to encourage a more inviting environment and get rid of a lot of toxic posts and threads, GET RID OF DIBS immediately!

I agree 100% most of bad blood around here comes from things that happened in the classifieds.
I’ve never experienced it prior to being a part of this group.

For example recently sold a transmission tremec t56. I had multiple offers but in took a lower price to sell it to a local so I didn’t have to ship it. He wasn’t the first, but the best option for me. No a single person got upset about it.
If I lock in a deal with a buyer I don’t back out.
Like selling my side by side. I posted probably to cheap but I wanted to move it fast. Tons of offers accepted a deal with some one driving 6 hours to get it. I agreed to his price and he left, I proceeded to get offers over his. I didn’t back out as we had that handshake deal.

I think we need grasp that just because someone posts something with an asking price the deal isn’t done till both parties agree to the terms. Look at the real estate market, shit I lost out on more than one house even coming in at full ask with good terms.

 

[ekricket]

And to those who PM'd me warning me about the toxic brats, thanks. i appreciate. the kind words.

You do realize that there’s a group of butt hurt people that go out of their way to use new members as tools to further their agenda against people who have “wronged them”. It’s kind of trendy now to recruit new people to “their side” by sending them friendly email as soon as you sign up warning you up front about their “perceived enemies”.

it’s just that kind of “community” I guess.

 

[rowlin]

Damn. Really?

 

[Eriks]

To all of you saying throw out dibs sales/offers via pm should be acceptable. How is that better than a public auction that already exists here? Seller may use a reserve price and all bids are transparent. Everybody gets a fair shot at the item and seller gets market value. Just use that if you don’t like to list stuff at a set price and honor dibs/I’ll take it/whatever.

 

[BPTDirector]

DIBS is so grade school. I’ve never seen it anywhere else. Like calling shotgun. Aren’t we better than that?

 

[CraigT78]

DIBS is so grade school. I’ve never seen it anywhere else. Like calling shotgun. Aren’t we better than that?

I still call shotgun if I'm not driving, and I'm 42 years old. How else does one claim the front seat?

 

[Perthmike]

Oh, I forgot to mention this about WUS:
In the sales threads there the mods made the sales threads so that only the OP can post. This eliminates all thread crapping publicly. Lets be honest, just about the only thing that people publicly do in someone elses thread is either thread crapping or some meaningless post like "nice chips." There really is no need for people to be posting in the m2m sales threads. All of that stuff can be done via PM and then you eliminate all this toxicity

There's a watch thread in here. I'd love to see pics of your collection.

Might join wus myself actually. I'm transitioning back to watches again.

 

[Perthmike]

I still call shotgun if I'm not driving, and I'm 42 years old. How else does one claim the front seat?

I hate dibs but you make a solid point lol

Wish it worked on a plane though

 

[72o]

Haha this is all so damn laughable to me. I guess it's because I don't play in the Classifieds much but that fact that we can't just put up a For Sale add with a price, sell it to whoever says "dibs" "mine" "I'll take it", ship money, ship chips and move on, is ridiculous to me. I guess I am just naïve.

 

[stavman]

You do realize that there’s a group of butt hurt people that go out of their way to use new members as tools to further their agenda against people who have “wronged them”. It’s kind of trendy now to recruit new people to “their side” by sending them friendly email as soon as you sign up warning you up front about their “perceived enemies”.

it’s just that kind of “community” I guess.

This is amazing. I sort of got the vibe I’m glad other people see it as well.

 

[ekricket]

Oh, I forgot to mention this about WUS:
In the sales threads there the mods made the sales threads so that only the OP can post. This eliminates all thread crapping publicly. Lets be honest, just about the only thing that people publicly do in someone elses thread is either thread crapping or some meaningless post like "nice chips." There really is no need for people to be posting in the m2m sales threads. All of that stuff can be done via PM and then you eliminate all this toxicity

Are you saying that we should only allow watches to be sold in the classifieds here? This is a poker chip site, but I can roll with whatever

 

[Eriks]

Haha this is all so damn laughable to me. I guess it's because I don't play in the Classifieds much but that fact that we can't just put up a For Sale add with a price, sell it to whoever says "dibs" "mine" "I'll take it", ship money, ship chips and move on, is ridiculous to me. I guess I am just naïve.

It really should be that simple

 

[stavman]

Haha this is all so damn laughable to me. I guess it's because I don't play in the Classifieds much but that fact that we can't just put up a For Sale add with a price, sell it to whoever says "dibs" "mine" "I'll take it", ship money, ship chips and move on, is ridiculous to me. I guess I am just naïve.

I think for 98% of deals this is the case. It’s the 2% for rare stuff that gets listed that triggers the issues.

 

[Eloe2000]

Haha this is all so damn laughable to me. I guess it's because I don't play in the Classifieds much but that fact that we can't just put up a For Sale add with a price, sell it to whoever says "dibs" "mine" "I'll take it", ship money, ship chips and move on, is ridiculous to me. I guess I am just naïve.

I tried to figure out how to setup a PayPal item with quantity of 1 so that I could post a link similar to Chiproom sales but unfortunately it looked like I cannot because I am not set up as a business. In the future I think I am going try the 24hr and all I will select a random person who indicated they want the chips. Plus an “asshat clause” of course.

 

[Eriks]

I tried to figure out how to setup a PayPal item with quantity of 1 so that I could post a link similar to Chiproom sales but unfortunately it looked like I cannot because I am not set up as a business. In the future I think I am going try the 24hr and all I will select a random person who indicated they want the chips. Plus an “asshat clause” of course.

I think I’m doing this as well

 

[LeGold]

I understand that the dibs system came about to try and make things more fair by making sales more transparent and in the spirit or making things more fair and to try and prevent problems, but it just does the exact opposite. It puts all this toxic waste out in the public and is creating an unfriendly environment.

IMO, only when people do not honor it. There are rules and codes of conduct (whether written or not). If someone doesn't like them, they don't have to use the classfieds. But they do, they are expected to follow these, like it or not, even though there might be no legal repercussions.

 

[BGinGA]

I was going to say this exact same thing. I feel strongly that the "dibs" system that is in place here is the cause of the vast majority of the problems. All this is doing is pissing people off for various reasons and is completely unnecessary.

There is more animosity here and more arguments here than I have seem on all other forums that I have been involved with combined. This whole dibs thing is ridiculous and should be done away with immediately. No where else do you have the dibs system and no where else do you have all this bickering. I am quite active several other forums, but I will give one example: I am on WatchUSeek (WUS) which is a watch forum and most on there are talking about and buying and selling watches that sell for many multiples of what the biggest & most expensive sets sell for here. That community has 430,000 members which is roughly 43x the number of members that are here. I am quite certain that some members there are profiting far more from buying and selling expensive watches than anyone ever does here just because of the higher buy and sell prices. @ WUS there is no dibs system and I basically never see people bitchin about sales threads and people flipping or any of this BS that seems to be just about the only topic around here.

I understand that the dibs system came about to try and make things more fair by making sales more transparent and in the spirit or making things more fair and to try and prevent problems, but it just does the exact opposite. It puts all this toxic waste out in the public and is creating an unfriendly environment.

To who ever runs this place:
You want to encourage a more inviting environment and get rid of a lot of toxic posts and threads, GET RID OF DIBS immediately!

The 'dibs' system worked fine for more than 13 years of chip sales on CT, HPT, and PCF (2005-2019 or so). It was never exactly fair to casual forum users, as 'first-come first-served' sales required being actively involved and frequently online in order to see and accept sales offers. It was certainly open to misuse, but those rare occasions were quickly identified and dealt with harshly by the membership at large. And so it worked..... mostly due to the honesty, integrity, and friendship shared by the vast majority of the community members.

It's the latter aspect which has changed. With a significant increase in membership has come a larger number of people who do not view the forum as a community, but rather as a place to either make a profit, or with no personal ties to anyone resulting in a 'me first at all costs' approach to chipping. Both violate the longstanding traditions of this once-small brotherhood of small clay disc collectors.

The percentage of members is likely similar to those in the past, but the sheer volume of new members in recent years makes the actual number of non-community-minded members significantly higher than before. And that's where the old sales system starts to fail -- when a large portion of the users try to find ways around the system to either maximize profits or 'get what they want' without any regard for others, rules, or fair play..... while the vast majority still operate under the assumption that those types of things simply aren't done among friends in a common community setting.

With growth comes change, and the old-school style of selling chips no longer works in the current social PCF environment. We'd be better off with NO sales ads (forced to use back-channels or eBay) than what we have right now combined with those who try to manipulate or circumvent it.

 

[Irish]

What action/situation was it meant to prevent though? If nothing, why create the rule?

I’m sure it was intended to help prevent something from happening but if by the letter of the rule, everyone now just puts “100 RCVL $5s for $1shipped” and then accepts PM offers for higher prices, it’s no longer a functional rule.

It appeases a portion of the membership that didn't like seeing WTS ads without a price, that's really about it. If used "properly", it creates that first starting point in a potential negotiation I guess. You are 100% correct, there are always folks who will find a way around the rules. The only way to stop that is going to a system like eBay or an online store/shopping cart kind of scenario, which I'm fairly certain Tommy wants no part of (I sure as shit wouldn't). I personally don't think all the rules are necessary, a hobby forum like this is buy/sell at your own risk setup, and your actions and history will speak for your integrity in the long run. Lots of "rules" and "dibs" without the means of enforcing them just makes for lots of butt hurt.

If I saw a WTS ad for chips I wanted with no price from a member I either had done prior business with or just knew was active on the forum, I wouldn't hesitate to reach out via PM and start up a conversation on those chips. And if their rep was solid, I'd likely have no issue with striking a deal - or maybe we can't, for whatever reason - no harm no foul - if happens (quite a bit). If I responded to a WTS ad with a price with either a post or PM saying "hey I'll take those chips shoot me your PP!", I wouldn't assume they were mine until I got a response "awesome they're yours here's my PP". I've had cases where this exact scenario came up, but instead of that golden reply I got "hey listen I got 3 other offers on these, I didn't realize I had underpriced them so much, but you were first so if you match the offer you can have them". If I feel the person is being honest (or if I really want the chips) I might consider it. Might. If I think they're being a bit disingenuous and squeezing me for more money, I politely say "no thanks" and add them to my shit list. I personally wouldn't conduct myself that way if I'm a seller, but at this point I have a pretty good idea of what my chips are worth (plus I don't sell all that much lol). And I absolutely will reach out and privately warn other members (especially friends & noobs) if I see that particular person selling something, and I've had others reach out to me with likewise concerns. There is still a very active community of really cool cats here that watch out for each other - it may not always be public, but it's there.

I’ve also got no dog in these fights, and I have such tremendous respect for you and all of the knowledge that you have provided here (and at PMC and at Keen etc), so don’t take this as any sort of personal argument. But what’s the point of the rule if nothing about it matters? If I could just put a $1 price in all of my sales ads, field PMs, then ultimately decide to sell or not, then we may as well be back to where we started. There’s always going to be exceptions based on location, ignore lists, blacklists/previous bad experiences, but the intention of the rule has got to be if I list at a price, and someone says they will buy at that price, that should be it! I’m not suggesting we should be enforcing sales at gunpoint - we obviously can’t *make* anyone sell chips for a given price - but loss of classifieds privileges doesn’t seem unreasonable. After all, that’s what we do with auction reneges, right?

See above, you're 100% right without enforcement the "rule" is just there as a guideline. But the alternative is to go the online store method, which IMHO just doesn't help the hobby. eBay is already set up for this, might as well just make use of it. Asking PCF mods to police ads and dole out penalties is simply not the road we want to go down, in my most humblest of opinions.

This may get me put on a lot of naughty lists, but one of the (many) mis-steps that led to the downfall of ChipTalk was the commercialization of the classifieds. The classifieds are meant to be like a street market or craft show - it can be a bit of a free for all and yes you may get burned here and there. That's why its important to either deal with the folks you know/trust or take the proper measures to protect yourself otherwise. And if you don't like that type of trading scenario (not directed at anyone in particular), just don't deal in the classifieds.

 

[ekricket]

I think for 98% of deals this is the case. It’s the 2% for rare stuff that gets listed that triggers the issues.

But by all means let’s have a knee jerk reaction, completely change how it all works, make more unenforceable rules, ban a few people, add some more “evil people” to the welcome message we send to new members, build some new forms and make sellers register and use escrow services. That will get those two or three out of literally thousands of transactions into line by golly.

 

[Rieguy]

Sellers are responsible for their own sales once they make their posts. They are also responsible for doing a little homework/research on what they are selling, relative FMV, or reaching out to someone that can help with advice or pointing them in the right direction.

If it is an auction, abide by the stated rules/format. If the sale is via dibs or a simple indication you will purchase via a post in the thread followed by a PM, specify this in the sales ad. If your method is to have everyone enter via thread indication and then do a drawing for who gets to purchase at the listed price, state it and follow through.

It is such an uncomplicated system that if you are running a sale or buying from one in good faith, everything should go well without a hitch.

 

[Nanook]

I think we need grasp that just because someone posts something with an asking price the deal isn’t done till both parties agree to the terms. Look at the real estate market, shit I lost out on more than one house even coming in at full ask with good terms.

My wife is a realtor. Her last two listings she had 27 & 17 offers. More than 1/2 of each of them were offers for more than 10%> list price. Nothing like this in RE for the past 20 yrs.

In RE it is more like silent bids though and then the listing agent gets to set the cut off. Say the list price is 400k and the property goes live on Thursday there are lots of showings. By Thur night there are a couple > full price offers and most of the showing times for both Fri and Sat are filled. Listing agent will say I am cutting this off and the seller will make a decision on Sat night. All offers highest and best due by Sat 6 PM. Everyone gets to put in what ever offer they want. They do have an opportunity to contact the listing agent and try and see if they can pry out some info. Like how many offers do you have etc. Sometime Sat night the Listing agent contacts one buyers agent and tells them they have "won" and contacts the rest with a "Sorry you didn't win"

You don't even have this type of bickering in RE either. There is certainly "Flippers" in RE and still you don't have this toxic environment. None of this is public info so there is no way of really knowing and thus NONE of the Bitchin that is going on here

 

[horseshoez]

Did someone say joke? Sure why not.

What do bees do if they need a ride?
They wait at the buzz stop.