Would you speak up, or every man for himself? (2 Viewers)

[jpietrella]

If I’m not involved in the hand I stay out of it.
I can recall a time I had AA vs QQ and the board ran out with 4 spades which I had none. I tabled my hand and she nodded in disgust, admitting defeat, she’s about to muck then some hero across the table yells at her to flip her cards over so she does and realizes she holds the winner, with her Q of spades, after the dealer points it out. She won a nice $500 pot and left two hands later. Lol

Yup, this. Great example.

She's not angle shooting, she's just flat out not reading the winning hand correctly. It's no one's place other than the dealer to do that. If you're not going to table your hand, you're going to give up your right to the pot and for the dealer to declare the winning hand.

 

[upNdown]

If I’m not involved in the hand I stay out of it.
I can recall a time I had AA vs QQ and the board ran out with 4 spades which I had none. I tabled my hand and she nodded in disgust, admitting defeat, she’s about to muck then some hero across the table yells at her to flip her cards over so she does and realizes she holds the winner, with her Q of spades, after the dealer points it out. She won a nice $500 pot and left two hands later. Lol

You’re 100% right to stay out of it.
If she tables her hand, we all have the responsibility to point out that she’s got the winner. But interrupting the action and telling her to table her hand? I believe that’s against the rules.

 

[Nanook]

In general, it's someone who does something that may technically not be against the rules of the game but is considered unethical because they're taking advantage of another player or a given situation.

Usually it also is done by people that are not rookies and is done to Rookies or at the expense of a lesser experienced player. I say this and it should not be confused with something that is done by the majority of excellent players, because expert players know they will get the money from the lesser experienced players without making the weaker player feel like they were taken advantage of.

Basically most expert players frown on this sort of thing....

 

[jpietrella]

Usually it also is done by people that are not rookies and is done to Rookies or at the expense of a lesser experienced player. I say this and it should not be confused with something that is done by the majority of excellent players, because expert players know they will get the money from the lesser experienced players without making the weaker player feel like they were taken advantage of.

Basically most expert players frown on this sort of thing....

That's true, but it's not always the case. I've seen regulars at the casino who angle shoot consistently, regardless of who they're up against. It's certainly going to be more difficult for them against experienced players, but that won't stop someone like that from trying.

 

[Nanook]

100

That's true, but it's not always the case. I've seen regulars at the casino who angle shoot consistently, regardless of who they're up against. It's certainly going to be more difficult for them against experienced players, but that won't stop someone like that from trying.

100% agree. There are some at our cardroom that do this sort of crap all the time and they are very much regulars. They think they are being smart or something. Most of the winning players think they are a-holes

 

[jpietrella]

100
100% agree. There are some at our cardroom that do this sort of crap all the time and they are very much regulars. They think they are being smart or something. Most of the winning players think they are a-holes

Because they are.

 

[SiouxperStack]

I wouldn’t say anything at a casino for sure. I probably wouldnt say anything at a home game either at that moment but if I started to sense that some was angle shooting at my game then yes we would have some words. After the hand was over I may say something to V2 like “you paid for the river, make V1 show us his cards”.

That’s probably the best way to handle it.

 

[Nanook]

Because they are.

agreed...
Not only that, but also in my mind this very much fits into the same category/same vein as "Don't tap the glass" and all the other sayings that are in this line of thought

 

[wolfpack]

To be clear I would say something, but not tilll the hand is over. When over I would make a comment about if I paid to see a hand I wouldn’t muck until they show.

 

[wolfpack]

I play poker with the assumption anything anyone says about a hand is a lie. Basically I play by the I’ll believe it when I see it rule.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I'm assuming this is a cash game, because that makes a difference. In a tournament, I will demand that Two Pair Guy table his hand to get the pot, 100% of the time.

If I'm playing cash at a casino or someone else's home game, I will not say anything during the hand. Yes, it's very possible that Two Pair Guy is angling, but making a comment when cards aren't tabled is an OPTAH violation. Once the hand is over, I would say something to the mucker.

In my home game, Two Pair Guy isn't getting shit until he tables his hand.

 

[JustinInMN]

Usually it also is done by people that are not rookies and is done to Rookies or at the expense of a lesser experienced player.

I may have did this once when I was 22. I learned my lesson .

100% agree. There are some at our cardroom that do this sort of crap all the time and they are very much regulars. They think they are being smart or something. Most of the winning players think they are a-holes

I just haven't seen this in the games I play, but again, I rarely play spread limit or higher than 8/16 limit either. Also I was a far more frequent player 7-8 years ago than I am today.

 

[TheDuke]

Depends on the situation.

1) If I know these guys are buddies/friendly,
2) there happened to other players who were involved in the hand at some point earlier but bet out of the pot by one of the 2 players

Then yeah I'll probably say something to make sure there's no BS going on. Especially in a casino. Alot of shitheads in the local casino scene.

 

[Frogzilla]

If I’m sitting by the guy who mucked, I’m 100% going to try and tilt em with a little “I think he was lying, you had the winner” after the fact

 

[DoubleEagle]

In our home game, if I’m dealing and the winner only shows one card I start pushing the pot to the loser. After a couple of consternation’s and explanations, they realize it takes two face up cards to win.

The hilarious part in a home game is that no one wants to show “too much information”.
I got news for you, your home game buddies that you’ve been playing with for years don’t need any more information about how you play cards.

This is a frequent problem at our games. I always make them show both to claim the pot.

 

[BNM]

Hypothetically speaking, would you speak up if you saw this happen in a game you were playing in (NOT the host):

Bet/call happens on river, so it's showdown....no further action to be had. V1 says something to the effect of "I have 2 pair" but does not make an effort to show his cards. V2 starts to muck hand. Do you speak up?

Does it matter if this is a home game versus a casino?

I’ve never played with anyone who would roll over and not say “show me”. Your story implies a fish at the table.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

Hypothetically speaking, would you speak up if you saw this happen in a game you were playing in (NOT the host):

Bet/call happens on river, so it's showdown....no further action to be had. V1 says something to the effect of "I have 2 pair" but does not make an effort to show his cards. V2 starts to muck hand. Do you speak up?

Does it matter if this is a home game versus a casino?

Damn...nice job calling me out...LOL!!

If it happens at my house, call it out my friend. I actually require somebody to show a winning hand if it gets to showdown to prevent this exact scenario.

 

[Highli99]

What is an “angle shooter”

Not a cheater, but someone who flirts with that line. I think the term comes from billiards. Could be wrong on that.

 

[303Mike]

Not a cheater, but someone who flirts with that line. I think the term comes from billiards. Could be wrong on that.

Surprised nobody calls it “New England Patrioting”

 

[Taghkanic]

If I’m not involved in the hand I stay out of it.

Agree 98.5% of the time. If the person not showing has been a dick to the rest table, or done this repeatedly, maybe I say something after the hand. But I’ll almost never get in the middle of it if I’m not in the pot.

 

[SiouxperStack]

Agree 98.5% of the time. If the person not showing has been a dick to the rest table, or done this repeatedly, maybe I say something after the hand. But I’ll almost never get in the middle of it if I’m not in the pot.

Agreed. Saying something after the hand is the best approach.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'm assuming this is a cash game, because that makes a difference. In a tournament, I will demand that Two Pair Guy table his hand to get the pot, 100% of the time.

If I'm playing cash at a casino or someone else's home game, I will not say anything during the hand. Yes, it's very possible that Two Pair Guy is angling, but making a comment when cards aren't tabled is an OPTAH violation. Once the hand is over, I would say something to the mucker.

In my home game, Two Pair Guy isn't getting shit until he tables his hand.

This is basically my answer too. Not my business to tell another player whether to table his hand, but that doesn't mean I can't be involved in another way afterward.

However, at a casino, I'm invoking IWTSTH ("I want to see that hand.") to force V1 to show his hand. What I really want is to ensure that V1 actually did have two pair, which I'm pretty sure is what @Schmendr1ck is trying to do with his home-game rule. If he didn't have two pair, but his declaration caused V2 to muck, that entitles V2 to the pot, according to at least Robert's Rules ("The Showdown" section):

2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)

This rule does specify "deliberately miscalling," but I think that's too wishy-washy. It's an open door for dishonest players to legitimize their angle-shooting by simply lying again. IMO, if you miscall your hand and cause another player to muck, you forfeit the pot, period, with only extremely rare exceptions for the greenest of noobs (and TBH, not even sure about allowing this exception, especially in a public cardroom). This may occasionally cause someone to lose the pot through an innocent mistake, but that's the price you pay to secure your game against unethical behavior.

Aside from enforcing the rule, I want to know if the guy lied because it's going to have a big impact on how I treat him from then on. If he has the two pair, great, nothing to see here. If he doesn't, I'm going to tell every single person who sits down that the guy in seat 4 is an angle-shooting piece of shit. Ideally he'll just leave.

And if it's at a home game that I host, I'd immediately rack him up and ban him from future attendance.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

However, at a casino, I'm invoking IWTSTH ("I want to see that hand.") to force V1 to show his hand. What I really want is to ensure that V1 actually did have two pair, which I'm pretty sure is what @Schmendr1ck is trying to do with his home-game rule. If he didn't have two pair, but his declaration caused V2 to muck, that entitles V2 to the pot, according to at least Robert's Rules ("The Showdown" section):

Not a bad idea for handling this in a game that isn't your own.

That wasn't my explicit intention in my home game, to be honest. I've beaten into my players over the years that at showdown, table your damned hand and the pot will get pushed to the winner. Once in a while, you still get a showdown where nobody wants to show, and I just wait for a tabled hand before the pot moves.

RRoP says that verbal declarations at showdown are not binding, but in multiple places he also says that miscalling your hand can be grounds for forfeiting the pot. So I suppose it's technically a house rule, but it's once I never have to use. Players in my game don't declare to induce a muck, because they know I don't tolerate that kind of crap.

 

[cosmokramer]

Casino - no. But I gotta admit I like jimulacrums approach
home game - probably not
my home game - of course, not all (!) cards shown, no pot

 

[grebe]

Damn...nice job calling me out...LOL!!

If it happens at my house, call it out my friend. I actually require somebody to show a winning hand if it gets to showdown to prevent this exact scenario.

Never at your house or Gunny's. Not. 1. issue. ever.

I have had a couple incidents pop up at another game I play in though where people have come up afterwards and tell me that an shouldnt have happened. I said "why didnt you say anything then?" They reply "not my place". This seems very weird to me that players in a regular home game would not want to police the other players for the good of the game. I am not surprised of this line in players that regular a casino, because there are just too many different players.

Thanks for the responses. Good fodder for thought.

 

[grebe]

I’ve never played with anyone who would roll over and not say “show me”. Your story implies a fish at the table.

It's a pretty common angle to get unexperienced players to muck their hand. I used it as a hypothetical example because most people have at least witnessed it before. Of course it's used against fish and general recreational players.

 

[BNM]

It's a pretty common angle to get unexperienced players to muck their hand. I used it as a hypothetical example because most people have at least witnessed it before. Of course it's used against fish and general recreational players.

I don’t doubt it. It’s still pretty sleazy. I wouldn’t let it go in my home games especially if it was against a new/inexperienced player. A lot of people on here seem to play professionaly or “professionally”, though, so in that arena “no holds barred”, I suppose.

 

[grebe]

I don’t doubt it. It’s still pretty sleazy. I wouldn’t let it go in my home games especially if it was against a new/inexperienced player. A lot of people on here seem to play professionaly or “professionally”, though, so in that arena “no holds barred”, I suppose.

It is 100 percent sleazy. I think everybody agrees on that. I pose this to the group because I am interested in how different players handle it in different environments.

For clarity: This is not something that happened to me recently. I havent played live in a year. I am however interested in starting to play in environments outside of my comfort zone of a regular home game....such as a casino. So, I think about these kinds of things often.

 

[BNM]

It is 100 percent sleazy. I think everybody agrees on that. I pose this to the group because I am interested in how different players handle it in different environments.

For clarity: This is not something that happened to me recently. I havent played live in a year. I am however interested in starting to play in environments outside of my comfort zone of a regular home game....such as a casino. So, I think about these kinds of things often.

You’re smart to ask and I would expect that in non-home environments you will see stuff like this. Degens gonna degen!

 

[Steve Birrer]

Y'all are missing a big part of this. Forget that you are not in the hand. The entire table gets to see those two cards, not just the guy losing the hand. Thats information for all to get.