Would you speak up, or every man for himself? (1 Viewer)

[legonick]

Home game, 100%. This is basically cheating, and I'm going to call it out if I see it. Casino, I'd like to think I would, but def. would be more reserved in that environment.

 

[legonick]

Y'all are missing a big part of this. Forget that you are not in the hand. The entire table gets to see those two cards, not just the guy losing the hand. Thats information for all to get.

100% agreed, and even more reason to police against this BS action, especially at a home game.

If someone was consistently angle shooting at a home game after being warned, they would for certain not be receiving an invite next time, and could even be kicked out mid session. It's bad for the game.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Y'all are missing a big part of this. Forget that you are not in the hand. The entire table gets to see those two cards, not just the guy losing the hand. Thats information for all to get.

I'd count providing information to other players as a very, very distant third-place reason to speak up, well behind ensuring fairness for the other player and protecting the integrity of the game. And it's a reason to speak up after everyone has decided whether to table their hands, not to intervene.

 

[JustinInMN]

And it's a reason to speak up after everyone has decided whether to table their hands

AFTER is absolutely the keyword here.

 

[legonick]

I'd count providing information to other players as a very, very distant third-place reason to speak up, well behind ensuring fairness for the other player and protecting the integrity of the game. And it's a reason to speak up after everyone has decided whether to table their hands, not to intervene.

What about providing additional information to yourself?

I think what he's getting at is, if the argument is "angle shooting is bad", you should speak up.

If the argument is "not my hand, not my problem", you should still speak up, because it's good for your own game to know what V1 had and how he played his hand. Also to know if he's an angle shooter, LOL.

 

[AWenger]

There are two types of home games: one where its more serious and the play is for money so in this type i would tell the person after the play you should have demanded to see his cards, in a friendly game where its more social and the play is 25c 50c blinds and there are newbies playing I speak up at the point so the newbies learn.

I agree with this. I've played some home games where it's more serious. In which case I would not speak up during the hand, but I would typically inform a player after the hand, to never muck until the other player shows the winning hand.

Once the winning hand is revealed face up, then 'cards speak' at which point it is correct for other players to point out any errors, for example, if the dealer misreads the cards and starts pushing the pot to the losing hand.

There was a time when I was the other player who almost mucked a winner when another player confidently announced "two pair!" at showdown but didn't show his cards right away. In that case, he wasn't lying, and he actually had two pair, the board was paired, but my low pocket pair was slightly larger than his pocket pair.

 

[crussader]

During the hand I say nothing (one player per hand). If the mucker is new to the game, I probably give him some advice after the hand.

 

[Zr1]

I wouldn’t say anything. Depending on the circumstances I might say something privately after

 

[KK_David]

Per Robert's Rules of Poker, in the Showdown section,
Rule 5 in the Showdown section says: "Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent’s hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins."

While I generally dislike this rule, it exists for situations like this. I would never tell V2 not to muck his hand without demanding to see V1's cards. That violates the One Player to a Hand rule. But, especially if V1 was a repeat angle-shooter, I would invoke Rule 5 to expose him (or her?) for everyone to see.

 

[Zr1]

playing sheriff is a bad idea in these situations. Nothing good comes of it. Generally super obvious who the angle shooters are. Use the information for your self and if no one else knows the rules or sees what’s going on that’s their issue. If your not in the hand keep your mouth closed

 

[CHP TD]

You just have to. If you love the game the integrity of the game must be upheld.

. since im a rules nazi i have a rule about it for my home game. theres a few abouty the showdown but basically u dont show it diddnt happen. Opponent gets the pot Now everyone shows.

Cards talk BS walks.

edit this is a situational question.

 

[mummel]

Of course you speak up. It’s a game among friends.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Depends if it's an angle shoot or not. If so, then yes I speak up. If not, then I don't. I've played enough to know when someone is angle shooting. And the people who do it can't help themselves from doing it nearly every chance they get. I 86ed a guy from a casino in WA when I was a poker manager back in the day for doing exactly that. I gave him numerous warnings. He did it one too many times. Adios. He never tipped the dealers either.

 

[BonScot]

In my game the winner has to show their hand. Keeps it nice and simple.

 

[Zr1]

In my game the winner has to show their hand. Keeps it nice and simple.

They have to show their hand if someone mucks? Why? Why should the other players who weren’t in the hand be entitled to that info. If someone folds to a bet on the river does the bettor have to show his hand to win? If someone fold the winning hand by accident that’s their fault. When in doubt I always table my cards and if someone has a better hand they need to show it. But if I muck my hand that’s on me. That’s my stupidity

 

[JustinInMN]

In my game the winner has to show their hand. Keeps it nice and simple.

I mean that's a nice thought but how is that enforceable in the situation in the first post if V2 does release his hand before V1?

 

[BonScot]

They have to show their hand if someone mucks? Why? Why should the other players who weren’t in the hand be entitled to that info. If someone folds to a bet on the river does the bettor have to show his hand to win? If someone fold the winning hand by accident that’s their fault. When in doubt I always table my cards and if someone has a better hand they need to show it. But if I muck my hand that’s on me. That’s my stupidity

Only if it’s gone to a showdown.

 

[BonScot]

I mean that's a nice thought but how is that enforceable in the situation in the first post if V2 does release his hand before V1?

It’s never been an issue. Winner always shows their hand at showdown.

 

[JustinInMN]

It’s never been an issue. Winner always shows their hand at showdown.

Okay I will rephrase the quest.

Just as in the OP, V1 bets, V2 calls. V1 says "two pair."

Then villain V2 releases hand without V1 showing. Who wins the pot?

The only way this NEVER happens is if all of your players in V2's position never release until shown V1's hand. (Which is a testiment to the intelligence of your players. But the original question is whether or not you actively prevent V2 from releasing without a showdown, or how do you rule?)

 

[BonScot]

Okay I will rephrase the quest.

Just as in the OP, V1 bets, V2 calls. V1 says "two pair."

Then villain V2 releases hand without V1 showing. Who wins the pot?

The only way this NEVER happens is if all of your players in V2's position never release until shown V1's hand. (Which is a testiment to the intelligence of your players. But the original question is whether or not you actively prevent V2 from releasing without a showdown, or how do you rule?)

It’s Scotland mate. Nobody’s giving up money without proof

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

It’s Scotland mate. Nobody’s giving up money without proof

Yeah same here. Noone would just muck because someone says what he holds.

 

[moose]

I'm assuming this is a cash game, because that makes a difference. In a tournament, I will demand that Two Pair Guy table his hand to get the pot, 100% of the time.

If I'm playing cash at a casino or someone else's home game, I will not say anything during the hand. Yes, it's very possible that Two Pair Guy is angling, but making a comment when cards aren't tabled is an OPTAH violation. Once the hand is over, I would say something to the mucker.

100% this.

A tournament is a zero sum game. If it goes to showdown a winner must be shown to award the pot.

 

[upNdown]

100% this.

A tournament is a zero sum game. If it goes to showdown a winner must be shown to award the pot.

Right. I once argued here that that was the rule. I didn’t realize it wasn’t the rule for cash, because I really only play tournaments (outside of home games,) so I just didn’t know any better. But now I know - barring house rules, nobody needs to show anything in a cash game, if they’re the last guy with cards.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Yeah same here. Noone would just muck because someone says what he holds.

Happens all the time in every game I play in. Countless times each night. When someone is bluffing and gets caught, they often prefer to just muck their hand instead. The winner doesn't say anything. Just scoops the pot.

 

[OfficerLovejoy]

Happens all the time in every game I play in. Countless times each night. When someone is bluffing and gets caught, they often prefer to just muck their hand instead. The winner doesn't say anything. Just scoops the pot.

Quite a different situation though.
If I bluff and get called I might just muck and the other player can just receive the pot without showing.
If he bets and I call him and the player says what he supposedly holds, I might say "yeah, flush is good." But still wait for him to actually show his cards.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Quite a different situation though.
If I bluff and get called I might just muck and the other player can just receive the pot without showing.
If he bets and I call him and the player says what he supposedly holds, I might say "yeah, flush is good." But still wait for him to actually show his cards.

In that case, ya, I'd tell the guy to show his damn hand.

 

[grebe]

In that case, ya, I'd tell the guy to show his damn hand.

What if you werent in the pot? Thats the original question.

 

[Taghkanic]

I’ve seen situations where an experienced player says something like “I made the straight flush” as a joke (because there obviously is no such possible hand on the board) but a more clueless player takes them seriously and moves like he is going to muck. In that rare situation as host I might take pity on the newbie/clueless player and say, “He’s joking...”

 

[RainmanTrail]

What if you werent in the pot? Thats the original question.

I'd tell them to show their hand every time in that scenario. I don't care if I'm in the pot or not, home game or casino. If you bet and got called, you have to show it.

And if he lied about the hand strength, final warning. Next time he's out.

FWIW, this is precisely why the rule exists that any player can ask to see a called hand at showdown. It's not so you can see how your opponent plays, it's so you can catch a cheat.

 

[Freudeus]

Doesn't matter if I'm involved in the hand or not. To claim a pot at showdown, you show a hand. Everyone at the table has the right to see the winning hand if it goes to showdown.