Controversial Chip & Poker Opinions (15 Viewers)

[BarrieJ3]

Given the frequencies that I see people listing live at insane prices and people buying at those prices it seems like it is controversial to some. I’ve had this discussion in PMs with people for ages. It’s not spurred by recent listings. Though those, and the people slobbering over them, did give me the drive to post

Posting chips for too much, or “flipping” is a constant topic.

Cmon mate, you’ve been here long enough to know this isn’t remotely controversial. Generally even those in the lucky spot to flip don’t necessarily love it.

People are what, supposed to just post for and take less money than market value? So that they later get screwed?

95%+ of classified posts are for what the seller thinks is the best they’re going to get. Dissecting that down into a specific, i.e. it’s just specifically bad regarding live chips, is a bit wonky.

But I don’t think you’re fibbing, so I get it. Those posts just being the ones that pushed you to post the opinion. Not meaning to be snappy, lots of people lately just posting snarky stuff aimed at specific people over in these threads these days.

 

[BarrieJ3]

The premium is set by buyers deciding how much a chip is worth to them.

If there's a buyer at the price listed, I don't understand the issue.

Even if there is not a buyer at the price listed, I don't understand the issue.

There are many thoughts and camps on this, dependent on history and exposure and involvement and such.

Not something that can be easily answered in one comment, but something that you probably need more than 3 months of experience here to grasp.

 

[FestiveKnight]

Posting chips for too much, or “flipping” is a constant topic.

Cmon mate, you’ve been here long enough to know this isn’t remotely controversial. Generally even those in the lucky spot to flip don’t necessarily love it.

People are what, supposed to just post for and take less money than market value? So that they later get screwed?

95%+ of classified posts are for what the seller thinks is the best they’re going to get. Dissecting that down into a specific, i.e. it’s just specifically bad regarding live chips, is a bit wonky.

But I don’t think you’re fibbing, so I get it. Those posts just being the ones that pushed you to post the opinion. Not meaning to be snappy, lots of people lately just posting snarky stuff aimed at specific people over in these threads these days.

I hear ya. Coulda put it in the other thread but I’ll push back a bit that this is a stronger opinion for me than just “those recent threads are BS.” I think live chips are specifically egregious when overpriced. I’ll also say that part of what I said in my OP was that I think it’s on everyone as buyers. You’re right on about sellers. I don’t care about sellers as much. I care about community norms reinforced by community behaviors. It’s about a social contract. We all stand in line at TSA even though it’s provably just security theater but I don’t think anyone needs to be validating high live chip prices by buying em that high.

Overpriced live chips also irk me because in some ways they’re anti-inflationary. They have an underlying guaranteed value by the casino and it’s not changing. A live $5 only ever gets you a $5 bill at the casino no matter how much you paid for it. I know from an Econ perspective what I’m saying is stupid (I have an econ degree) but there’s a value on these that experiences no changes. You pay twice the face value and want to move em, you might be able to, but the casinos won’t take em back for that. It just makes something feel absurd about it to me.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

With a few exceptions* live chips should not cost more than 30% above face. There's a justifiable premium for some chips for the work of harvesting them but live chips should not be 100s of times face. As a community we should put pressure on this behavior and change the norms around pricing live chips.


*I think there are some obvious exceptions like a mint rack of a chip that has been in play for 15 years and just isn't available at condition that should apply some reasonable upward pressure on price but new chips from new casinos....

Like these?

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/greektown-casino-0-25-frac-chips-for-sale.110389/

This guy is asking more per chip that the beautiful Paris $5s go for. Yeah, they're fracs, but does anyone think these are worth $6.75 per chip???

 

[binoclard]

Who would have thought to see arguments against the sanctified capitalism's teats that are supply and demand and the free market's consequences on a gambling paraphernalia marketplace…?

 

[improviseallday]

They have an underlying guaranteed value by the casino and it’s not changing. A live $5 only ever gets you a $5 bill at the casino no matter how much you paid for it.

The redemption value is a price floor, not a price ceiling. Chips can have more value based on condition, beauty, and rarity.

For live chips "rarity" mostly depends on how hard it is to buy the chips. Is it hard to get to the casino? Will the cage sell you all the racks you want, or do you have to play table games for a long time? This doesn't mean that minty 25c chips are worth $10 a piece. But it means that some chips, especially fracs that you have to work for, will have a higher premium than 30%.

 

[jr8719]

If chips are overpriced, they won't sell — it's as simple as that.

 

[Gunnar]

I hate red chips in most sets

 

[FestiveKnight]

The redemption value is a price floor, not a price ceiling. Chips can have more value based on condition, beauty, and rarity.

For live chips "rarity" mostly depends on how hard it is to buy the chips. Is it hard to get to the casino? Will the cage sell you all the racks you want, or do you have to play table games for a long time? This doesn't mean that minty 25c chips are worth $10 a piece. But it means that some chips, especially fracs that you have to work for, will have a higher premium than 30%.

You’ve now made this point twice and I still don’t know what you’re trying to add to the conversation. I explicitly mentioned exceptions in my OP.

 

[Tonysquander]

Meh, those oversized inlay house mold chips are just fugly IMO. Base color is pepto bismol banal. The only place I would even buy them at face value is the casino and then I would give them back at the tables free of charge.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Anybody who knows my politics knows that I am far, far from a "free unregulated markets are the best markets" capitalist.

That said, my apparently controversial opinion when it comes to the chip market? Ask what you want when selling, pay what you want when buying.

Ideas like setting a cap on what you can sell a live chip for, or thinking that "real chippers" should always sell chips for what they paid? It's ridiculous.

To use a recent example, I would love to own a couple hundred MGM quarters, but I think $1000 per rack is utterly outrageous. Am I trying to prevent the guy from selling for that price? Absolutely not. I'm just keeping my wallet in my pocket and moving on.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Anybody who knows my politics knows that I am far, far from a "free unregulated markets are the best markets" capitalist.

That said, my apparently controversial opinion when it comes to the chip market? Ask what you want when selling, pay what you want when buying.

Ideas like setting a cap on what you can sell a live chip for, or thinking that "real chippers" should always sell chips for what they paid? It's ridiculous.

To use a recent example, I would love to own a couple hundred MGM quarters, but I think $1000 per rack is utterly outrageous. Am I trying to prevent the guy from selling for that price? Absolutely not. I'm just keeping my wallet in my pocket and moving on.

You actually keep a wallet in your pocket? Whatta boomer.

 

[FestiveKnight]

Anybody who knows my politics knows that I am far, far from a "free unregulated markets are the best markets" capitalist.

That said, my apparently controversial opinion when it comes to the chip market? Ask what you want when selling, pay what you want when buying.

Ideas like setting a cap on what you can sell a live chip for, or thinking that "real chippers" should always sell chips for what they paid? It's ridiculous.

To use a recent example, I would love to own a couple hundred MGM quarters, but I think $1000 per rack is utterly outrageous. Am I trying to prevent the guy from selling for that price? Absolutely not. I'm just keeping my wallet in my pocket and moving on.

I’ll say it again. I don’t propose setting a cap sellers can list that. I propose harshly encouraging a social norm capping what buyers buy at. I suspect for these most egregious listings that will take of some itself just by showing that there’s not that much demand at the high prices but I was making a point about how communities can intentionally express their beliefs with their behaviors.

A point I don’t seem to be getting a lot of engagement on

 

[jr8719]

I’ll say it again. I don’t propose setting a cap sellers can list that. I propose harshly encouraging a social norm capping what buyers buy at. I suspect for these most egregious listings that will take of some itself just by showing that there’s not that much demand at the high prices but I was making a point about how communities can intentionally express their beliefs with their behaviors.

A point I don’t seem to be getting a lot of engagement on

With what happened during Covid and the recent NAGBs, I think those days of "capping what buyers buy at" is long gone, sorry to say. Appreciate your point though, for sure.

 

[binoclard]

I think your concern is valid, but imho there is no "communities" or "social norms" where it comes to supply/demand and want/need.
If one has the money, and want the goods, even at ridiculous prices, he certainly will not care about the community, the precedent it creates, or what a "fair price" would be. He values X at Y price at Z moment.

In my opinion, you can not put a soft regulation or expect altruistic gestures on basic behaviour like "I want this thing, I want it now, and I am willing to pay that much for it, and screw the others."

 

[Rieguy]

Everyone basically agreeing that the market will more or less dictate us buying/selling at FMV is the least controversial thing in this thread .

If chips are overpriced, they won't sell — it's as simple as that.

There's a few outliers but it's not 2021-2022 anymore, which was perfectly summed up here:

Maybe this one is controversial.... people thread-shitting on this random guy is easy because it's so egregious and no one knows him. It's just senseless bitching since he isn't going to sell these chips for anywhere near the ask. Maybe we should bump threads that are deserving instead, although it's not PCF style to let such things simply die out with a whimper. But seriously, who cares? Like Jeff said, all part of the typical cycle.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

You actually keep a wallet in your pocket? Whatta boomer.

If you wanna carry a man purse, that's your business...

 

[binoclard]

The Bumps on a sale thread should cost something. $5 a bump should make sellers think twice before putting an insane price tag, and then let their ad rot for months while bumping daily.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

You actually keep a wallet in your pocket? Whatta boomer.

Hey! I'm GenX, you damn whippersnapper. Get off my lawn.

 

[QueYo]

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

If you wanna carry a man purse, that's your business...

Found one! Took the bait, easy game.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I’ll say it again. I don’t propose setting a cap sellers can list that. I propose harshly encouraging a social norm capping what buyers buy at.

If you want to poke fun at egregious listings, or encourage people to yell "BOO!" when someone pays (in your opinion) too much, go for it.

But I don't believe it will be effective. People will still sell for what they want, and people will still buy for what they want.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

If you want to poke fun at egregious listings, or encourage people to yell "BOO!" when someone pays (in your opinion) too much, go for it.

But I don't believe it will be effective. People will still sell for what they want, and people will still buy for what they want.

This. I'm all for promoting a community and developing relationships with other chippers. But folks gonna do what folks do when it comes to money. The only way I know to determine how much is too much is when nobody buys it. I'm also in favor of looking out for the n00bs. More than once I've seen a new member express interest in chips that seemed to be excessively priced, and sent them a PM to warn them. Beyond that, there's always thread crapping. But that will usually get you into hot water.

@FestiveKnight I'm genuinely curious what you are suggesting. What do you see the process being for "harshly encouraging a social norm capping what buyers buy at." I'm having trouble picturing what this looks like. Can you be more specific?

 

[BarrieJ3]

It is downright bizarre to see so many people pine for better days and a sense of community on OTHER people's sales posts, yet they don't seem to be doing the opposite.

I look forward to everyone posting their charity auctions and giveaways and classifieds for far under-market value. Not directed at festiveknight I think he made a valid point and perspective. I'd tag all the people this is geared towards, but that might break PCF.

 

[JMC9389]

It is downright bizarre to see so many people pine for better days and a sense of community on OTHER people's sales posts, yet they don't seem to be doing the opposite.

I look forward to everyone posting their charity auctions and giveaways and classifieds for far under-market value. Not directed at festiveknight I think he made a valid point and perspective. I'd tag all the people this is geared towards, but that might break PCF.

Preach.

What's ironic is that these sales are really the first of their kind in a long while. I listed my CDI's at what I thought was a really fair price for almost a month and got no interest in them, so I'm keeping them. Buyer's market right now. Love it or not, Tina ceramics are bringing down the value of entry level Paulsons. Top shelf stuff is still top shelf and made of unobtanium.

I understand what @FestiveKnight is saying. I'm not advocating for a hard cap on what harvested chips can be sold for, but at what point is it about raking someone else over the coals and not about the work put in and the risk acquiring the chips? Still, chippers gunns chip. If chips sell st exorbitant prices, good for the seller. Chips will only sell for what the market will tolerate.

I'm just going to follow the advice offered and keep my mouth shut from here on out.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Preach.

What's ironic is that these sales are really the first of their kind in a long while. I listed my CDI's at what I thought was a really fair price for almost a month and got no interest in them, so I'm keeping them. Buyer's market right now. Love it or not, Tina ceramics are being down the value of entry level Paulsons. Top shelf stuff is still top shelf and made of unobtanium.

I understand what @FestiveKnight is saying. I'm not advocating for a hard cap on what harvested chips can be sold for, but at what point is it about raking someone else over the coals and not about the work put in and the risk acquiring the chips? Still, chippers gunns chip. If chips sell st exorbitant prices, good for the seller. Chips will only sell for what the market will tolerate.

I'm just going to follow the advice offered and keep my mouth shut from here on out.

Yeah I should shush too, I mostly shush now!

Here’s the secret to not flipping chips!!!!! Only buy chips that won’t ever increase in value!

All my chips are IGs which never sell and there are 4-5 sets available at any given moment, Paris whose mint THC $5s dont even sell for face value, and Adolfos which have no price.

Buy stuff no one ever wants and you never have to worry about giving in to the dark side

Tl;dr:

 

[improviseallday]

You’ve now made this point twice

Apologies for the extra reading.

and I still don’t know what you’re trying to add to the conversation. I explicitly mentioned exceptions in my OP.

Let's imagine there is consensus that there should be some harsh social consequences for buying what some believe are overpriced chips. (I hope not.)

I would reckon that "30% with few exceptions" is unworkable because:

1. There will be many exceptions, not few. Where this guideline will be most tested is during the exceptions. So we must at least make an attempt to list the exceptions.
2. People would apply 30% as a guideline on how far out an exception can be ("75%? That's 150% of our 30% rule!").

 

[Rieguy]

When you see people crapping a sales thread that doesn't deserve those added bumps:

 

[softchewy]

As a community we should put pressure on this behavior and change the norms around pricing live chips.

A point I don’t seem to be getting a lot of engagement on

jk

 

[Schmendr1ck]

All my chips are IGs which never sell

I have a DM that proves you wrong.