OP
OP
Oh that’s right! If I know that he has an Ace then I could exploit him.
I need help catching a hanger. Possible cheater at the VFW game (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Mushmanchuman
- Start date
That’s actually an interesting question - would I rather have an exposed ace every hand or two unexposed cards every hand?If my read was wrong and he actually is cheating with exactly Ax every hand, playing against an exposed ace is an edge
My initial guess is that I’d lean toward the ace if we’re playing shorthanded.
Bronson
Two Pair
Only if he regularly will have an ace, what if he’ll rotate between ace, king and queen?
Still exploitable but not as straightforward any longer.
ekricket
Royal Flush
I think if he could do this he would be good enough not to get caught in the first place.
Most of us make this assumption anyway when somebody raises preflop.
And exposed ace doesn’t know it’s exposed? You want two unexposed cards.
maxim_666666
Flush
Good post. I used to be into card tricks when I was a kid. I could easily control two cards in the deck, deal them to myself or someone else, or even reverse the entire deck’s order, even if someone else had cut it.
(If a guy has good hand mechanics, you’ll never see it—maybe a high-resolution, high-frame-rate camera could help.)
But I never do that, because it’s an absolute scumbag move. It doesn’t bring me any enjoyment, and it kills the game entirely. Why would you want that kind of atmosphere in a $10 game? Kick him the hell out.
By the way… You shouldn’t have been watching HOW he does it, but WHERE the Ace/King/Queen ends up when he gathers the cards from the table!
If, when picking up the cards, he always places the Ace at the top or bottom of the deck—he’s 100% a cheat.
(If a guy has good hand mechanics, you’ll never see it—maybe a high-resolution, high-frame-rate camera could help.)
But I never do that, because it’s an absolute scumbag move. It doesn’t bring me any enjoyment, and it kills the game entirely. Why would you want that kind of atmosphere in a $10 game? Kick him the hell out.
By the way… You shouldn’t have been watching HOW he does it, but WHERE the Ace/King/Queen ends up when he gathers the cards from the table!
If, when picking up the cards, he always places the Ace at the top or bottom of the deck—he’s 100% a cheat.
OP
OP
I watched him like a municipal worker the next week. Every time he had the cards my eyes were on his hands. Nothing fishy went down and he busted out relatively early.
He still collected the cards facing him and he does the same shuffle every time. I did not see any ace at the bottom of the deck when he was shuffling. If he is cheating that's when he puts the ace on the bottom but I gotta find out how he moves it into his hand. I'll try and get another set of eyes.
Maybe I'm wrong and just paranoid.
He still collected the cards facing him and he does the same shuffle every time. I did not see any ace at the bottom of the deck when he was shuffling. If he is cheating that's when he puts the ace on the bottom but I gotta find out how he moves it into his hand. I'll try and get another set of eyes.
Maybe I'm wrong and just paranoid.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
What are we supposed to do with all these pitchforks?
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
Also, two decks. You shuffle someone else cuts.
maxim_666666
Flush
In fact, there are a huge number of card control techniques. If he is still practicing, you won't be able to see it... If you recorded a video, it would make things easier, and I could explain how it's possible in this particular case. Just don’t let him hold the deck of cards. That’s the best solution.
maxim_666666
Flush
Look it up on the internet. There are a huge number of videos teaching card tricks and card control.
By the way, if the game is played with only one deck and X insists on using only that deck, to me, that would be an even bigger red flag than anything else. People often train with specific types of cards. For example, magicians frequently use decks that can be found in any supermarket because someone might ask them to show a trick and hand them a deck—like Bicycle cards.
And that’s exactly why your X (or someone else) insists on using only one deck. Their hands simply can’t handle other types of cards, like plastic ones… I’m not saying with 100% certainty that he’s cheating, but based on what you’re describing, it really seems that way.
I just can’t imagine a situation in a friendly game where someone would refuse to use a neutral dealer who speeds up the game...
By the way, if the game is played with only one deck and X insists on using only that deck, to me, that would be an even bigger red flag than anything else. People often train with specific types of cards. For example, magicians frequently use decks that can be found in any supermarket because someone might ask them to show a trick and hand them a deck—like Bicycle cards.
And that’s exactly why your X (or someone else) insists on using only one deck. Their hands simply can’t handle other types of cards, like plastic ones… I’m not saying with 100% certainty that he’s cheating, but based on what you’re describing, it really seems that way.
I just can’t imagine a situation in a friendly game where someone would refuse to use a neutral dealer who speeds up the game...
I agree that it’s irrational. But it seems pretty clear that these two guys don’t like each other, so it doesn’t shock me that this guy doesn’t want the OP to deal. Maybe it’s a stupid personality thing, maybe this guy doesn’t trust the OP, maybe this guy thinks the OP is bad luck.
Just my two cents, and it sounds like this sorted itself, but:
- It sounds like there are grounds to ban him for just being a dick, regardless of potential cheating
- You're the game-runner. Why not mandate two decks, shuffle behind? Who GAF what this guy thinks.
- You're the game-runner. Why not deal full-time, whether you're playing or not, to speed the game along? Shuffle can still move with the button, or rotate among 2-3 regulars.
- Both of the above are pretty standard home-game procedures anyway to avoid potential issues like you raised in the first place.
- It sounds like there are grounds to ban him for just being a dick, regardless of potential cheating
- You're the game-runner. Why not mandate two decks, shuffle behind? Who GAF what this guy thinks.
- You're the game-runner. Why not deal full-time, whether you're playing or not, to speed the game along? Shuffle can still move with the button, or rotate among 2-3 regulars.
- Both of the above are pretty standard home-game procedures anyway to avoid potential issues like you raised in the first place.
OP
OP
I can’t single him out and make any decisions on the gameplay unless everyone agrees. One person says nah and it’s thrown out. I am the guy as far as the VFW goes and it’s my game.
With the actual players I’m mostly respected, but not in charge. There is a very smart dude that sets up the chips, runs the bank, rebuys, structure, payouts, etc. He sits dealer seat and calls the action and helps collect the pot/make change every hand.
Like anyone, I’m very happy to have him run the show and I don’t want to rock the boat. I can speak with him about my concerns and insist that the two deck, shuffle behind is implemented.
Hopefully he respects the reasoning. It’s not like it is anymore work for the players and the time it saves is crucial. This is a turbo tourney that only lasts 3.5 hrs the longest.
We probably lose 15 mins of play from shuffling. I’d time how long exactly but I’m to busy watching another player shuffle while he watches me watch him. Maybe.
OP
OP
I am going to voice my concerns to the game runner as I am not the OFFICIAL game runner. I just brought all my cool shit to update their game. It's at my club/post and I also clean the shitters, kitchen and back hall. So I'm an employee of the clubroom as well. I have pull and can ban anyone or kill the game if need be. I'd rather not though obviously.
I think that getting the two deck system put in is a very strong possibility. The other times I mentioned it was a while ago and I was a newb. Now I think they will switch just based on the time loss alone. I don't think I would even have to mention that I think X is cheating to strongly sell the 2 deck system. Even though I think I should. Right now I haven't spoke w/ any of the players about this. I will probably have to be the "card pile/deal captain" while the other guy runs the game, which shouldn't be too bad. These players are all pretty hip.
After one orbit it is obvious that it's the best system. They will see the light.Sometimes people like things how they are. Sometimes I have to respect that.
OP
OP
All possibilities and I agree. That is where I was at in the first place. Just thought that he like to give it has lucky bridge shuffle or he likes to "shuffle the tits off the queens". That's why it wasn't a biggie.
Like someone else here stated it is very strange to refuse a dealer. No card player I know would prefer to pass the deal. Except maybe dudes that haven't ever played cards with a dealer. All these players frequent card rooms and I would consider them good ol regs. It was very odd and then he WAY over reacted to my sweat when I put out the flop. The only reason we ever had words with each other was when he told me I couldn't deal anymore.
I couldn't figure out why he was so upset at what I did. It was weird because him and I have had good report with one another up to this point. At least that's what I thought. He is younger than a lot of the other guys so maybe there is something about me he doesn't like. That was and still is a possibility. I'm not too concerned with that. I'm more focused on if he's cheating.
I got no problem sitting at a table with people that don't like. I used to have dinner with my step-dad a lot. I'm used to it...
OP
OP
As whole they wanted one deck. Nobody has had the chance to die on the hill yet. That'll come out when I get the game runner to ok the switch.
Player X is the only one that insisted I stop dealing. He tried it low key a few other times before. After a week of thinking about it I decided to watch him deal to see how he dealt since he just haddddd to deal.
That’s when I saw him put the ace on the bottom of the left hand throughout the shuffle and into the cut. Then later when I wasn’t really watching him shuffle and busted out, I saw him showdown an ace 4 or 5 buttons in a row. Game was 4 handed I think so the deal was moving
merkong
Full House
If you’re the only post member, and thank you for your service I work for VA, talk to the post itself and take over the game.
Then you can institute anything you see fit to prevent angling, cheating, etc. etc. and you’ll have the authority to tell people “you’re done”if they earned that distinction.
Good luck.
Then you can institute anything you see fit to prevent angling, cheating, etc. etc. and you’ll have the authority to tell people “you’re done”if they earned that distinction.
Good luck.
Player X sounds like a real jagoff. Boot him for that, if need be. The caution I expressed on the cheating angle is I don't think anyone should ever be accused of that unless there is definitive proof, not just a feeling or intuition they are doing it or a few uncommon things that may or may not be coincidental when they are dealing.
Player X is apparently friends with the group that plays and an accusation, if unfounded and untrue, is still a bell that cannot be unrung. It will stay in his friends' heads forever. Even a jagoff doesn't deserve to be unfairly accused and to have his reputation tainted if it is untrue. Let him do that all on his own by being a prick.
Just my two cents. Sounds like OP has it under control and is exercising appropriate restraint on the issue.
Player X is apparently friends with the group that plays and an accusation, if unfounded and untrue, is still a bell that cannot be unrung. It will stay in his friends' heads forever. Even a jagoff doesn't deserve to be unfairly accused and to have his reputation tainted if it is untrue. Let him do that all on his own by being a prick.
Just my two cents. Sounds like OP has it under control and is exercising appropriate restraint on the issue.
I’ll continue playing devil’s advocate. Poker players are weird. I once started a thread here wondering if I should ban a player because I didn’t like the way he took an extra second, slow-rolling a big river that he was dealing. That’s not rational but it bothered me.
And i actually like dealing once per orbit - I greatly prefer pass the deal over dedicated player-dealer. I’ll agree that at the end of a tournament, it would be irrational to refuse a competent non-player dealer, unless or course he was a guy who I didn’t like or trust.
OP
OP
That is basically what happened and I speak my mind/ have a big mouth, so he very well could not like me and the slow, sweat of the river REALLY burned his ass. I understand people are quirky, myself included and I was/am fine with passing the deal.
It’s actually easier for me not to deal. I get to sit around and just watch, go creep around the bar/Royal Oak or go home and bang my sleeping wife.
They thought I was taking it personal when him and I were arguing. I said I really don’t mind not dealing after I bust. It was a favor to the quests of my club. Many of whom I hold in high regard and like hanging out with. They are a bunch of really fun dudes and one ol drunk broad.
^^^ This
OP
OP
Not just this guy. Entire group “has always done it this way…Blablabla…we tried it once and it messed everything up…Blablabla…”
Seriously every excuse I have heard about why they hate the two deck system. Im at the point now where I want to add all the dealing time up and be like “look assholes, we are doing wrong.”
I’d just say “Listen, every other home game uses two decks, and it speeds things up a lot. Anyway, I’m the one who has to clean the toilets and the kitchen and keep the hall in order, so I’m pulling rank here. You’ll never want to go back to the old way after a couple of games.”
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