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Min Raise Rules (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Davism72
- Start date
Now, I am just stating from my own experience.
I have seen different interpretations applied in different casinos. Usually it is by dealer error (hey, they’re human) , sometimes even by the floor supervisor’s error (also human). Sometimes it’s even that house’s own set of rules.
I know that maybe a decade ago in France, it used to be set that way, that a min raise had to actually be double the last bet amount. It actually was shown on a wpt? episode, where the North American player argued it. I’m in France now though, and have been informed that they have long since changed the rule to follow standard North American practice.
Mike
I have seen different interpretations applied in different casinos. Usually it is by dealer error (hey, they’re human) , sometimes even by the floor supervisor’s error (also human). Sometimes it’s even that house’s own set of rules.
I know that maybe a decade ago in France, it used to be set that way, that a min raise had to actually be double the last bet amount. It actually was shown on a wpt? episode, where the North American player argued it. I’m in France now though, and have been informed that they have long since changed the rule to follow standard North American practice.
Mike
WTF now i'm reading the OP. why is the min $5 for player 1? and not $4?
If players 3 raised to $3 which means calling the $1 and raising $2, then player 1 is only facing a $2 raise. Should his min raise be only $4? what am i missing?
Almost got it. Player C could have raised it the same amount (5) to a total of 13.
Trust me, this gets everyone. I’ve taught dozens of poker dealers at my casino, and this is something everyone struggles with.
Mike
yes sorry. I added the $5 three times , twice was enough.
In that example it went:
1) Bet $1
2) Call $1
3) Raise by $2 to a total of $3
Action back to 1) who can fold, call $3, min raise $2 to a total of $5, or raise more than $2 up to their whole stack.
Mike
OP
OP
Davism72
Flush
Quick, someone set up a T-shirt group buy with this on them.
A bets $1
B calls $1
C raises to $3 (a raise of $2)
D min-raises to $5 (a raise of $2)
A goes all in for $5.50 (a raise of $0.50)
B calls $5.50
C wishes to min-raise. How much is that? Show your work.
Edited to show B's action.
B calls $1
C raises to $3 (a raise of $2)
D min-raises to $5 (a raise of $2)
A goes all in for $5.50 (a raise of $0.50)
B calls $5.50
C wishes to min-raise. How much is that? Show your work.
Edited to show B's action.
Last edited:
Ok, but really,
If B folds OR calls the $5.50:
C’s options are i)fold and forfeit the $3, ii)call$5.50, iii)min raise of $2 on top of the $5.50 all in which was not a full raise to a total of $7.50, or iv) raise more than $2 up to their whole stack.
If C folds OR calls the $5.50:
D’s options are i)fold and forfeit the $5 or ii)call an additional $0.50 They can not raise, as the all in was not a full raise.
Mike
B’s options are to i) fold, and forfeit the $1, ii)call$5.50, iii)min raise of $2 on top of the $5.50 all in which was not a full raise to a total of $7.50, or iv) raise more than $2 up to their whole stack.
If B folds OR calls the $5.50:
C’s options are i)fold and forfeit the $3, ii)call$5.50, iii)min raise of $2 on top of the $5.50 all in which was not a full raise to a total of $7.50, or iv) raise more than $2 up to their whole stack.
If C folds OR calls the $5.50:
D’s options are i)fold and forfeit the $5 or ii)call an additional $0.50 They can not raise, as the all in was not a full raise.
Mike
I understand that B can call the all in at 5.50, but if B wants to min raise wouldn't the minimum total bet be $7? Because the last valid raise was to $5 (which is $2 more than $3), so wouldn't the next min raise be $5 + $2 = $7? The all-in shouldn't count as a "raise" because he couldn't meet the minimum raise to $7, and is therefore all in?
No, the total of a min raise is the largest actual raise added to the current bet amount.
You will often see this done in error in tournaments (where all ins are frequently less than a previous bet)
Bet of 800
All in for 1100
Min raise would be 1900. However many places say the min raise is to 1600, but last I checked, that is not standard tda rules.
Mike
Wow, I can see how things can easily get screwed up when a short stack goes all in. I guess you'll never go wrong if you just bet BIG! 
Now, the example that I have never seen a definitive answer for:
A bets 1500
B calls 1500
C raises to 3500
D all in for 4500
E all in for 4700
F all in for 5500
G all in for 5800
Back to player A
They can fold, call 5800, but the min raise is????
There are usually 2 main arguments here:
1) prior to the shove fest, the largest raise amount was 2000. Now there is a jump of 2300 (from 3500 to 5800), thus the min bet is 5800+2300, thus giving you 8100.
2) when player F went all in, that was a legitimate raise of 2000. That has established the new total at 5500. Player G has now only raised by 300, which is not a valid bet, thus player A can min bet 2000 on top of the last bet amount of 5800 for a total of 7800.
This is purely hypothetical. In practice I have never seen it happen, and can see valid points to either answer. It’s just a fun question I came up with that is nearly useless.
Mike
A bets 1500
B calls 1500
C raises to 3500
D all in for 4500
E all in for 4700
F all in for 5500
G all in for 5800
Back to player A
They can fold, call 5800, but the min raise is????
There are usually 2 main arguments here:
1) prior to the shove fest, the largest raise amount was 2000. Now there is a jump of 2300 (from 3500 to 5800), thus the min bet is 5800+2300, thus giving you 8100.
2) when player F went all in, that was a legitimate raise of 2000. That has established the new total at 5500. Player G has now only raised by 300, which is not a valid bet, thus player A can min bet 2000 on top of the last bet amount of 5800 for a total of 7800.
This is purely hypothetical. In practice I have never seen it happen, and can see valid points to either answer. It’s just a fun question I came up with that is nearly useless.
Mike
That's not how I understand the rule to work:
C can min-raise $2.50 (since that is the amount of the total raise he is facing) on top of the $5.50 to a total of $8, or up to the size of his stack.
Although A's $5.50 raise is not a complete raise (and therefore doesn't re-open the action for D if C folds or just calls), the amount of the actual raise facing C plays a role in his fold, call, and min-raise decisions. In other words, it affects C's actions, but not D's.
I think this is correct. The easiest solution is for all remaining players to shove and hope that the large stack wins the hand. Who wants to deal with all those side pots?
It's helpful, for me at least, to review some of the more esoteric situations that we hardly ever encounter in live play.
This looks like a tournament hand, so I consulted the TDA rules. The examples are invaluable to understanding more complex situations.
43: Raise Amounts
A: A raise must be at least equal to the largest prior full bet or raise of the current betting round. A player who raises 50% or more of the largest prior bet but less than a minimum raise must make a full minimum raise. If less than 50% it is a call unless “raise” is first declared or the player is all-in (Rule 45-B). Declaring an amount or pushing out the same amount of chips is treated the same (Rule 40-C). Ex: NLHE, opening bet is 1000, verbally declaring “Fourteen hundred” or silently pushing out 1400 in chips are both calls unless raise is first declared. See Illustration Addendum.
View Poker TDA Rules, Procedures, & Addendum
Rule 43: Raise Amounts. “The largest prior full bet or raise of the current betting round”.
This line refers to the largest additional action or “last legal increment” by a preceding bettor in the current round. The current round is the “current street”, i.e. pre-flop, flop, turn, river in board games; 3rd – 4th – 5th – 6th – 7th street in 7-stud, etc.
Example 1: NLHE, Blinds 100-200. Post-flop, A opens with a bet of 600. B raises 1000 for total of 1600. C re-raises 2000 for total of 3600. If D wants to raise, he must at least raise the “largest bet or raise of the current round”, which is C’s raise of 2000. So, D must re-raise at least 2000 more for a total of 5600. Note that D’s minimum raise is not 3600 (C’s total bet), but only 2000, the additional raise action that C added.
Example 2: NLHE, Blinds 50-100. Pre-flop A is under the gun and goes all-in for a total of 150 (an increase in the bet of 50). So, we have a 100 blind bet and an all-in wager that increases the total by 50. Which is larger? The 100 is still the “largest bet or raise of the current round”, so if B wants to re-raise he must raise at least 100 for a total of 250.
Example 3: NLHE, Blinds 100-200. On the turn A bets 300. B pushes out two 500 chips making the total 1000 (a 700 raise). It is 1000 to C to call. If C wants to raise, it must be “at least the largest bet or raise of the current round”, which is B’s raise of 700. So, C’s minimum raise would be 700 for a total of 1700. Note his minimum raise is not 1000, B’s total bet.
Example 4-A: NLHE, Blinds 25-50. A raises 75 to 125 total. Notice that 125 total = 50 (bet) plus 75 (raise). The next raise on this street must be “at least the size of the largest previous bet or raise”, which is 75. B now raises the minimum (75) to 200 total. C then re-raises 300 for total of 500. We now have a bet of 50, two raises of 75 and a raise of 300 for total of 500. If D wants to re-raise, “the raise must be at least the size of the largest previous bet or raise of the current betting round”, which is now 300. So, D must raise at least 300 more to a total of 800.
Example 4-B: Same as 4-A. It’s the same 500 to D, but there’s just been one raise of 450 by A to a total of 500 and B and C have both called. So, there’s a blind bet of 50 and a raise of 450. “A raise must be at least the size of the largest previous bet or raise of the current betting round”, which is A’s raise of 450. So, it’s 500 for D to call, and if D wants to re-raise he must raise at least 450 for a total of 950.
I disagree. RROP for cash games is pretty much the same as the TDA rule I quoted above, so I'll stick with $7.50.
I’ve not seen it done that way.
If you use that, are you also saying that B’s min raise would be to $8 as well, or do the 2 different players have different min raise amounts?
The way that I understand the rile, is that the $2.50 was not a raise. It was an all in of $2.50, which is akin to calling the $2 bet and having not a full size bet added on. Thus the largest raise is still $2, so the min raise still stands at $2 plus the total amount of the biggest bet.
Mike
I think the most side pots I’ve dealt in a cash game at the casino was 5 side pots. Unlike home games, I had to split all up prior to dealing it out. I am pretty sure there were 3 winners in the hand, with 1 person only having less than $10 from the last side pot, and I had to have a supervisor call him back to the table so that we wouldn’t have to deal with “found money” left behind.
Yeah, I like to play the what if game as well. I still don’t know the answer to my hypothetical though. Both answers seem correct to me.
Mike
I stand corrected, at least per the TDA rules. The TDA wording (and example 1 below) make the proper procedure crystal clear.
Rule 43: Raise Amounts. “The largest prior full bet or raise of the current betting round”.
This line refers to the largest additional action or “last legal increment” by a preceding bettor in the current round. The current round is the “current street”, i.e. pre-flop, flop, turn, river in board games; 3rd – 4th – 5th – 6th – 7th street in 7-stud, etc.
Example 1: NLHE, Blinds 100-200. Post-flop, A opens with a bet of 600. B raises 1000 for total of 1600. C re-raises 2000 for total of 3600. If D wants to raise, he must at least raise the “largest bet or raise of the current round”, which is C’s raise of 2000. So, D must re-raise at least 2000 more for a total of 5600. Note that D’s minimum raise is not 3600 (C’s total bet), but only 2000, the additional raise action that C added.
I think RROP only refers to the size of the previous bet or raise (but doesn't specify full raise or not), vs TDA actually adding the (very useful) term "largest prior full bet or raise".
Although it may have been Bob's intent for it to be treated the same way, the TDA rule wording is far superior.
Effective immediately, min raises will not be allowed in our home games
Polochris
Flush
Haha I agree. I am more confused now before reading this thread. I’m just going to stick to my original rule. If UTG opens up with a raise to $5, then next re-raise must be $10. Simple as that.
Agreed. Fortunately, he did provide a good example in the limit section. Because the NL section does not address the issue of facing an incomplete bet, I think it's fair to extrapolate from the example in the Limit section when determining the amount of a full raise (min-raise in NL).
Betting and Raising (RROP)
5. In limit play, an all-in wager of less than half a bet does not reopen the betting for any player who has already acted and is in the pot for all previous bets. A player facing less than half a bet may fold, call, or complete the wager. An all-in wager of a half a bet or more is treated as a full bet, and a player may fold, call, or make a full raise. (An example of a full raise is on a $20 betting round, raising a $15 all-in bet to $35).
Alex, I'll take Calculating a Pot-size Raise in PLO for $500, please.
My favourite poker game to deal was PLO. For simplicity sake in our casino we had a rule in place that the pot was rounded up to the next $5 increment for a pot sized bet.Alex, I'll take Calculating a Pot-size Raise in PLO for $500, please.
I loved when a player would say “Pot!” And I would look at their stack and tell them they were now all in. Made me wish I could have been playing in the game instead of dealing.
Mike
I didn't realize that you were (are?) a dealer until you posted in this thread. Good to know!
I remember the first time I played microstakes PLO online. One hand I wanted to raise and saw that the pot was $x. Without knowing how a pot-sized raise was calculated, I clicked the Pot button thinking I was raising $x. I was shocked to see the amount of my raise on the screen and thought the software must have made an error. That was well over ten years ago. Lesson learned, and quickly!
OP
OP
Davism72
Flush
Shit, how's it calculated?
Yeah, I kept it very very quiet when I went into the casino industry. I had worked in project management in construction for over 20 years when I saw that my specific line of work was getting very slow. Thought I’d try something different, spent a couple of weeks pondering what to do, and thought that casino management might be interesting. Looked online and saw that there was an info session coming up for dealers, went to that, and 2 days later, was in training.
Started off with baccarat and blackjack. Learned all the novelty games within a week. Learned craps in my first year and was promoted to relief supervisor within 8 months. The previous record for a new hire to the casino world becoming a relief supervisor was about 3 years. Finally was given the chance to deal poker the next year, and while in training for it, the trainers made me run part of the course. Since then I have helped with training for many of the games.
When I first started though, I basically took a year off of social media, and drastically reduced my online presence. The last thing I wanted to do was jeopardize my new career choice. Now I am taking time away, my wife got an amazing opportunity to come to France, and there was no way I could not support her. Most exciting and most terrifying thing I’ve done.
So while I’m away, I’m back surfing poker chips, dreaming up chipsets to build again with all my free time.
Mike
Started off with baccarat and blackjack. Learned all the novelty games within a week. Learned craps in my first year and was promoted to relief supervisor within 8 months. The previous record for a new hire to the casino world becoming a relief supervisor was about 3 years. Finally was given the chance to deal poker the next year, and while in training for it, the trainers made me run part of the course. Since then I have helped with training for many of the games.
When I first started though, I basically took a year off of social media, and drastically reduced my online presence. The last thing I wanted to do was jeopardize my new career choice. Now I am taking time away, my wife got an amazing opportunity to come to France, and there was no way I could not support her. Most exciting and most terrifying thing I’ve done.
So while I’m away, I’m back surfing poker chips, dreaming up chipsets to build again with all my free time.
Mike
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