Shuffle Behind - enough already. Shuffle ahead is barbaric. (2 Viewers)

[JustinInMN]

Could someone briefly write out - or direct me its location in a thread - the steps/needs for each of the three principals in the "shuffle behind" method? Full disclosure, I'd like to copy & paste it directly into my house rules document.

I am sure this can be refined, but these are the basics.
1) Hand starts by dealer cutting the "ready" deck, shuffled by someone else.
2) During the hand, player to the dealer's right shuffles the other deck for the hand following the current hand
3) At some point, dealer takes the ready deck from the player at the right and sets it by his player at the left to deal the next hand
4) At the conclusion of the hand, dealer gathers cards he dealt and shuffling this deck to be the ready deck for the hand after the player on his left deals.
5) Next dealer cuts and deals per step 1.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Could someone briefly write out - or direct me its location in a thread - the steps/needs for each of the three principals in the "shuffle behind" method? Full disclosure, I'd like to copy & paste it directly into my house rules document.

This is the newsletter we used the first night we tried shuffle behind.

You need only read the first story. At the time, we were a NLHE tournament only group. The second story is how we eased into cash games, and is not relevant to this thread.

 

[AK Chip]

This is the newsletter we used the first night we tried shuffle behind.

You need only read the first story. At the time, we were a NLHE tournament only group. The second story is how we eased into cash games, and is not relevant to this thread.

View attachment 671909

Sorry I should have made two separate posts.

Two decks makes a huge difference to hands played per level. We always use a dedicated dealer, (this makes shuffling ahead work fine) we have the BB shuffle becaus that is the last player to act their hand.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Could someone briefly write out - or direct me its location in a thread - the steps/needs for each of the three principals in the "shuffle behind" method? Full disclosure, I'd like to copy & paste it directly into my house rules document.

When you are the dealer, here's what should happen:
1) You will get a shuffled and cut deck (cut card on the bottom) from the player on your right. Deal the hand.
2) When the hand is over, you should have gotten a shuffled deck with a cut card on top from the player on your right. Cut it and pass it to the left.
3) Gather the deck that you just finished dealing. Shuffle it, put a cut card on top, and pass it to the player on your left.
4) Enjoy the rest of the orbit until you deal again.

The cut card on top of the shuffled deck is super important - in my group, it's the universal signal for "this deck is shuffled but needs a cut." Also, if you're the dealer and the hand is over, cut the new deck before gathering the old one. We've tried it both ways, and cutting first is faster.

 

[LotsOfChips]

Could someone briefly write out - or direct me its location in a thread - the steps/needs for each of the three principals in the "shuffle behind" method? Full disclosure, I'd like to copy & paste it directly into my house rules document.

Simplest explanation:

1) When you are finished dealing, collect all the cards and shuffle them.
2) Pass the shuffled deck to the current dealer (on your left)
3) Current dealer cuts the shuffled deck and passes it to the current small blind (next dealer)
4) Rinse and repeat

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

dedicated dealer two decks bb shuffles. Works just fine for us.

If you are taking turns dealing, behind is definitely the way to go, however I deal full time for my games, in which case BB of current hand shuffles deck of last hand:
1. After showdown, I muck all remaining cards and gather deck up.
2. I move button and hand cards to the new BB.
- This acts as a great reminder to the BB that they are due to post.
- Also, BB is last to act preflop, so they typically have some time to get some riffles in.
3. SB hands shuffled deck to me with cut card on bottom. Because SB is the only one to have touched the deck, I slide cut card off bottom w/o exposing card and do a quick riffle and cut onto it, thereby giving it a second interaction. Collusion still possible, but very hard with a riffle and cut.
* If I am BB, I award the shuffle at random, typically someone who is not engaged in conversation or otherwise busy. I try to award that burden equally, but don't keep track of it.

This method works great and it acts as a great reminder that BB is due, speeding gameplay up.

 

[AK Chip]

If you are taking turns dealing, behind is definitely the way to go, however I deal full time for my games, in which case BB of current hand shuffles deck of last hand:
1. After showdown, I muck all remaining cards and gather deck up.
2. I move button and hand cards to the new BB.
- This acts as a great reminder to the BB that they are due to post.
- Also, BB is last to act preflop, so they typically have some time to get some riffles in.
3. SB hands shuffled deck to me with cut card on bottom. Because SB is the only one to have touched the deck, I slide cut card off bottom w/o exposing card and do a quick riffle and cut onto it, thereby giving it a second interaction. Collusion still possible, but very hard with a riffle and cut.
* If I am BB, I award the shuffle at random, typically someone who is not engaged in conversation or otherwise busy. I try to award that burden equally, but don't keep track of it.

This method works great and it acts as a great reminder that BB is due, speeding gameplay up.

This is exactly what we do, if I'm dealing i hand my shuffle turn to last person that won a pot against me lol.

 

[dmoney]

Simplest explanation:

1) When you are finished dealing, collect all the cards and shuffle them.
2) Pass the shuffled deck to the current dealer (on your left)
3) Current dealer cuts the shuffled deck and passes it to the current small blind (next dealer)
4) Rinse and repeat

This is great! I added points on cutting the new deck, and the cut card per @Schmendr1ck. Three straightforward steps:

1. When you are finished dealing, collect all the cards and shuffle them, but always cut the new deck before gathering the old one.
2. With a cut card on top of the deck, pass the shuffled deck left, to the current Dealer.
3. Current Dealer cuts the shuffled deck and passes it left with the cut card on the bottom to the next dealer in the small blind.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

This is great! I added points on cutting the new deck, and the cut card per @Schmendr1ck. Three straightforward steps:

1. When you are finished dealing, collect all the cards and shuffle them, but always cut the new deck before gathering the old one.
2. With a cut card on top of the deck, pass the shuffled deck left, to the current Dealer.
3. Current Dealer cuts the shuffled deck and passes it left with the cut card on the bottom to the next dealer in the small blind.

Sounds great.

And honestly, it will quickly become almost reflex for your players. My guys get super distracted and drink a lot during games, and they still rarely screw this up.

 

[LotsOfChips]

This is great! I added points on cutting the new deck, and the cut card per @Schmendr1ck. Three straightforward steps:

1. When you are finished dealing, collect all the cards and shuffle them, but always cut the new deck before gathering the old one.
2. With a cut card on top of the deck, pass the shuffled deck left, to the current Dealer.
3. Current Dealer cuts the shuffled deck and passes it left with the cut card on the bottom to the next dealer in the small blind.

Glad you approve. I agree that @Schmendr1ck's suggestion about the cut card on top is a worthy addition.

If the shuffler is fast enough (or the current hand is long enough, I find that the dealer can often cut and pass the shuffled deck while the current hand is still in play. If not, there are (rare) occasions when it makes sense to collect the cards while a slow shuffler is still getting ready to pass you the deck, so the "always" might better be "try to".


Happy shuffling from behind!

 

[Schmendr1ck]

If the shuffler is fast enough (or the current hand is long enough, I find that the dealer can often cut and pass the shuffled deck while the current hand is still in play.

In my game (and I have some very casual players), I would say that when a hand is finished, the other deck is shuffled and ready for a cut almost 100% of the time. The rare times when it isn't ready, it's almost always because the next hand ended preflop.

Players get into the rhythm of "gather the deck, check your new hand, shuffle and pass to the left" pretty quickly.

 

[Poker Zombie]

The only thing I would add to @Schmendr1ck 's suggestion, is to place the cut card on top of the deck at a 90 degree angle to the rest of the deck.

This way the cut card can be easily removed without knocking the top card off the deck. The cutter can then perform the cut with only one hand. Since every casino requires a dealer to cut using only one hand, I assume that it prevents some sort of card manipulation.

 

[JustinInMN]

I had the occasion to play in a "shuffle ahead" game last night. It is noticeably inferior. I do understand the logic that in a single deck situation, dealers shuffle their own deck, they are just doing this during the hand in which they are the small blind. But there is awkwardness is gathering the finished deck and passing it two seats over to the next small blind.

I can sum up the advantage of "shuffle behind" with one feature. The middle of the table gets cleared for the new hand much faster.

In shuffle ahead, either the player due for the SB has to be aware of gathering the deck right away, or wait for the previous dealer to do it and attempt to pass around the next dealer. With shuffle behind. The dealer should be aware of gathering the cards as a continuation of the dealing procedure, and does not have to attempt to pass the deck until it is shuffled, which can be done at any time during the next deal, even at the very end. Passing the deck over to the next SB obstruct the current dealer.

Both methods are better than single deck (Though I think I would make the case single deck is just fine if four handed.) But shuffle behind wins the day hands down at getting the next hand in the air the fastest.

 

[AK Chip]

Rotating dealer shuffle behind, dedicated deal shuffle ahead.

 

[Jeff]

Clean up your own mess is the best way. Gives the new dealer clear right of way to start dealing when the cleanup is to their right. Sit the shuffled deck to the current dealers right, they cut and pass it on when they can.

 

[ArielVer18]

I had the occasion to play in a "shuffle ahead" game last night. It is noticeably inferior. I do understand the logic that in a single deck situation, dealers shuffle their own deck, they are just doing this during the hand in which they are the small blind. But there is awkwardness is gathering the finished deck and passing it two seats over to the next small blind.

I can sum up the advantage of "shuffle behind" with one feature. The middle of the table gets cleared for the new hand much faster.

In shuffle ahead, either the player due for the SB has to be aware of gathering the deck right away, or wait for the previous dealer to do it and attempt to pass around the next dealer. With shuffle behind. The dealer should be aware of gathering the cards as a continuation of the dealing procedure, and does not have to attempt to pass the deck until it is shuffled, which can be done at any time during the next deal, even at the very end. Passing the deck over to the next SB obstruct the current dealer.

Both methods are better than single deck (Though I think I would make the case single deck is just fine if four handed.) But shuffle behind wins the day hands down at getting the next hand in the air the fastest.

That sounds like the SB shuffle method. It's not very good.

Try the BB shuffle method. The big blind, after posting his blind, takes in the discards from the previous hand, squares up the deck, and shuffles. When the current hand ends he will slide the pack to the player on the right, the new button, who will cut and deal.

As @Alex Lundstrum may have already mentioned, the act of posting a big blind is a reminder that this player has a job to do. If not, all the other players pushing cards in his direction so the table will be clear for the next hand will remind him to shuffle.

 

[grantc54]

dedicated dealer two decks bb shuffles. Works just fine for us.

This is the way for various reasons:
- dealer is not shuffling his own deck
- cards arent being passed across a player
- when your done dealing your done for the orbit until your BB

 

[JustinInMN]

That sounds like the SB shuffle method. It's not very good.

Try the BB shuffle method. The big blind, after posting his blind, takes in the discards from the previous hand, squares up the deck, and shuffles. When the current hand ends he will slide the pack to the player on the right, the new button, who will cut and deal.

I mean both are "shuffle ahead" because it's the player after the current dealer that is doing the shuffling.

The problem I see with the BB method is now the dealer has to pass the stub 3 seats instead of two while hoping the BB is gathering the cards on the table.

It really seems to me doing "shuffle behind" is more efficient because the dealer should still have the stub at the end and only has to gather the cards on the table to clear for the next dealer and begin shuffling in his own space. Anything else, requires the current dealer to at the very least reach past the next dealer to pass the stub and possibly make sure that dealer is paying attention to gather the cards on the table before the new dealer can start pitching. In shuffle behind, the previous dealer can keep the stub, gather the cards, and the next dealer has the whole table to clear while the previous dealer can shuffle in his own space.

 

[Poker Zombie]

- dealer is not shuffling his own deck

Also true in shuffle behind.

- cards arent being passed across a player

Also true in shuffle behind.

- when your done dealing your done for the orbit until your BB

When you are done shuffling you are done for the orbit, until your deal.

As far as I can tell, the only actual advantage to shuffle ahead is playing position. Shuffle ahead is a blind shuffling, so they are more likely to fold, and can continue shuffling. I find this to be negated because the decks move back and forth for cuts, instead of a constant right to left movement, plus the difficulty in dealing past the guy pulling in or washing a deck.

That, of course is in a rotating deal game. As others have mentioned, it changes when there is a dedicated dealer.

 

[ArielVer18]

The problem I see with the BB method is now the dealer has to pass the stub 3 seats instead of two while hoping the BB is gathering the cards on the table.

That's the issue I have with the original question. Between SB shuffle and CO shuffle, SB shuffle is clearly the more inferior method.

CO shuffle method requires the current dealer to consolidate the muck pile as players fold. That way, he can easily collect all the cards after the hand is over. While he is shuffling, because he's the CO now, he has a higher chance of a playable hand distracting him from the shuffling duty. After he finishes shuffling and the current hand is over, he slides the pack to the player to the left who cuts, and finally slides the pack to the next player to the left who deals. Three players involved, which is good.

For BB shuffle, the old dealer can simply toss the cards to the new big blind. No need for any graceful slide or pass. The muck doesn't even need to be consolidated as most home poker players aren't professional dealers. To players who have never taken a statistics class, the act of the entire table pushing/tossing cards at the new big blind might even appear to make the deck of cards "more" random. Meanwhile, since the big blind is the last to act preflop, he might actually finish shuffling before it is his turn to act. If not, he is less likely to play his hand due to being in early position and can focus on shuffling. After the hand is over, the pack of cards slides to the player to the left, who cuts and deals. Two players involved is less than three players involved, but it's fine from a cheating prevention POV since the person dealing isn't the same person shuffling.

As far as I can tell, the only actual advantage to shuffle ahead is playing position. Shuffle ahead is a blind shuffling, so they are more likely to fold, and can continue shuffling. I find this to be negated because the decks move back and forth for cuts, instead of a constant right to left movement, plus the difficulty in dealing past the guy pulling in or washing a deck.

Either CO shuffle method or BB shuffle method is fine. However, SB shuffle method sucks.

 

[JustinInMN]

CO shuffle method requires the current dealer to consolidate the muck pile as players fold.

Which the current dealer should be doing.

he has a higher chance of a playable hand distracting him from the shuffling duty.

This is true, but given the deck should at the very least be square before the action gets to him, it probably won't be an issue to set it aside to have a look. Most of the time when we are doing "shuffle behind" I have the deck done before the end of the flop.

For BB shuffle, the old dealer can simply toss the cards to the new big blind.

This maneuver isn't "simple" based on my experience last night. It is because the new dealer has to be crossed one way or another, and if it's the BB shuffle, the pass has to be 3 seats now instead of two.

In either shuffle ahead method, the new dealer either...
1) Is delayed while the old dealer makes the reach
2) Deals before the deck is passed to the BB which delays the start of the shuffle of the next hand.

Both of these are averted doing shuffle behind.

 

[Poker Zombie]

This is true, but given the deck should at the very least be square before the action gets to him, it probably won't be an issue to set it aside to have a look. Most of the time when we are doing "shuffle behind" I have the deck done before the end of the flop.

I also find this to be true in my case, but less capable shufflers are frequently still shuffling. However, these same players are unlikely to be done shuffling in the span of 2 preflop actions, negating the only advantage shuffle ahead possesses.

Also - and this is speculation only - I believe that a player that is a poor shuffler is also unlikely to adjust their range based on position.

 

[Saoliver]

Ben hit on one of my biggest reasons for Shuffle behind: 3 players manipulate the deck. One shuffles, one cuts, one deals.

If the municipal workers game in Rounders used shuffle behind, Mikey and worm would have never had their asses beat. There would have been no opportunity to deal off the bottom, because it would take 3 players working in unison to "fix" a deck.

I will also add that, when shuffling ahead, you have to pitch cards past someone that is still pulling in the muck. For amateur dealers, that can be a real - even an insurmountable - game delay issue.

Also, I just noticed tonight in the first poker scene at KGB’s, Mike is dealing his fatal hand. The player to his right (behind) is shuffling another deck.

The quintessential poker movie has it this way, so it must be correct.

 

[TheRealTeddyKGB]

I always preferred IN FRONT!

 

[Pinball]

We take the cards out of the card shuffler and thats it