Have we finally reached market saturation?? (12 Viewers)

[ovo]

@ovo 's. Not even a thought. If I had a choice of being gifted WW or ovo's entire collection (or even simply seeing it), I wouldn't hesitate for a second.

I don't know, WW has premium stuff, sure I have a lot of sets, 161k worth of chips, but I would not call my stuff premium, maybe some. I'm just a street Hor, WW is high class Hor. But don't forget Herman @Godzilla28 , he is one of those secret Hors . Come to think of it, there are a lot of Hors on this site.

 

[TheOffalo]

I don't know, WW has premium stuff, sure I have a lot of sets, 161k worth of chips, but I would not call my stuff premium, maybe some. I'm just a street Hor, WW is high class Hor. But don't forget Herman @Godzilla28 , he is one of those secret Hors . Come to think of it, there are a lot of Hors on this site.

If you’re gonna drop letters from the beginning/end of “whore” why wouldn’t you go “all the way” and drop the “r” too?

 

[BPTDirector]

Hor can also be the first part of Hor-der.

 

[TheOffalo]

Hor can also be the first part of Hor-der.

 

[ssanel54]

But that’s my biggest complaint about him. He literally paid 2x-3x market rates for most of the stuff he bought. I guess if you were a seller in those days it was nice for you. But his shopping spree just served to raise the prices for all of us.

I’m not sure that’s entirely accurate. Many of those chips weren’t for sale at the community’s perceived market rate. He would keep raising his offer until he found their breaking point. Or in my case I gave a stupid number on some chips, but never expected him to say yes. So it was my own undoing.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I’m not sure that’s entirely accurate. Many of those chips weren’t for sale at the community’s perceived market rate. He would keep raising his offer until he found their breaking point. Or in my case I gave a stupid number on some chips, but never expected him to say yes. So it was my own undoing.

I concur - Many blame @Windwalker for extravagant pricing, but he's not. Those that do are only using him as a fall guy.

If I went out today and offered $20 a chip for Tigers, it would not make all tigers more expensive. It sure as hell wouldn't make the Boat chips more expensive, or any other chip. I would simply have payed over market value to get what I wanted. The chips I bought would go for $20 each, and the remaining Tigers in the world would sit idly in the classifieds, still looking for the right connection between buyer and seller.

It was every other purchase since then that railed prices. It takes a buyer and a seller to set a price, and a continual stream of buyers/sellers to "set" a price. Even then the price really isn't "set". It's just what they go for as of the last transaction.

Perhaps @ekricket is right and the CODID payments from the government boosted prices. Perhaps the chip market languished at $1-$2 per chip for so long it trailed inflation, and the jump was just a correction - perhaps even an over-correction.

But nobody should poo-poo WW for getting what he wanted, and for finding a break-point where fingers were pried off chips and replaced with cash.

 

[upNdown]

If I went out today and offered $20 a chip for Tigers, it would not make all tigers more expensive.

He didn’t do it once. He did it time after time after time.
He wasn’t the only factor but he was certainly one out of a few factors. But the clearest example is this:
He literally set the market price for PCAs that pretty much remains in place today. Don’t you remember that? And it’s easy to make him the villain because when he did that with the PCAs IT WAS A SPITE BUY!!! And that wasn’t the only time he spite-bought.

 

[ssanel54]

He didn’t do it once. He did it time after time after time.
He wasn’t the only factor but he was certainly one out of a few factors. But the clearest example is this:
He literally set the market price for PCAs that pretty much remains in place today. Don’t you remember that? And it’s easy to make him the villain because when he did that with the PCAs IT WAS A SPITE BUY!!! And that wasn’t the only time he spite-bought.

Perhaps I missed this but what is a spite buy?

 

[upNdown]

Perhaps I missed this but what is a spite buy?

When somebody refuses to sell him some specific chips, so he angrily and publicly buys a shitload of those chips at crazy inflated prices the very next day, to show everybody that he can.

 

[ssanel54]

When somebody refuses to sell him some specific chips, so he angrily and publicly buys a shitload of those chips at crazy inflated prices the very next day, to show everybody that he can.

But there was no real spite, the original seller said no and he moved on? Or was that seller trying to negotiate or buy additional chips himself?

 

[upNdown]

But there was no real spite, the original seller said no and he moved on? Or was that seller trying to negotiate or buy additional chips himself?

As I recall, windwalker posted an angry rant one night because somebody refused to sell him PCA chips. I’m not sure about the details of that transaction, but it seemed pretty clear that windwalker took it personally. The next morning he posted a want to buy with inflated prices for each denom - I remember the $5 specifically at $1200 (and I think he bought 18 racks of those?) because I sold him my only rack because I realized I’d never get another at a reasonable price. (I had bought my rack just months earlier for $550.)

It wasn’t the first time he’d done this. The bourbon st. $5s were the first I recall. Same idea, somebody refused to sell him their bourbon st. $5s and he got PISSED. He actually disappeared from the site for a few days or a week. When he reappeared, it was with a picture of 10-20 racks of those exact chips, announcing he’d paid $1700 for them. Which was probably about 3x market price, give or take. It was a spite buy and it was obnoxious.

 

[louBdub]

Entire thread:

 

[ssanel54]

As I recall, windwalker posted an angry rant one night because somebody refused to sell him PCA chips. I’m not sure about the details of that transaction, but it seemed pretty clear that windwalker took it personally. The next morning he posted a want to buy with inflated prices for each denom - I remember the $5 specifically at $1200 (and I think he bought 18 racks of those?) because I sold him my only rack because I realized I’d never get another at a reasonable price. (I had bought my rack just months earlier for $550.)

It wasn’t the first time he’d done this. The bourbon st. $5s were the first I recall. Same idea, somebody refused to sell him their bourbon st. $5s and he got PISSED. He actually disappeared from the site for a few days or a week. When he reappeared, it was with a picture of 10-20 racks of those exact chips, announcing he’d paid $1700 for them. Which was probably about 3x market price, give or take. It was a spite buy and it was obnoxious.

I see. But the net result for the seller was just that the valuation of his set may have gone up? He didn’t undermine others sales buy his flex?

 

[ekricket]

I remember the $5 specifically at $1200 (and I think he bought 18 racks of those?) because I sold him my only rack because I realized I’d never get another at a reasonable price. (I had bought my rack just months earlier for $550.)

You could have sold those to him at $575 and stopped the price increase. But you chose not to. Who is to blame here? He certainly didn’t MAKE you sell those at that price. You chose to accept the price increase for a few bucks and you are even more guilty than him for contributing to this. If no one sold him racks at crazy prices then crazy prices would not have been paid. It’s the sellers fault for giving into greed, not the buyer who simply wants to acquire something

 

[BPTDirector]

Must we build so much intrigue into a hobby of collecting pieces of matter used for games? So he has money. Maybe market changing money. He is not the only factor prices skyrocketed. I like a few here have 15 or more years of hanging around this and other forums dedicated to chips and the interest overall has blossomed to a pretty good number of people. But there are over 5 Billion people in the world, 10,000 is a very small percentage per capita.

 

[David O]

I would agree here. LOL

I work with folks and have for many years, that are very well off. You have to realize that $1500 per rack to them is like paying $5 or less. They are not doing it in spite, they are paying for something they want. With that amount of money, he probably does not care what anyone thinks about what he buys. He definitely does not care to "spite" anyone. It is not being arrogant, it is simply a transaction.

I have been the purchaser for some of the deals with my friends spending over $100,000 for up to three cars in one weekend. They buy because they can and really want the item. Never in spite, but because they have the money and can afford it!

It seems that many get upset about these buys and I can guarantee you the onlooker is way more emotional than the purchaser has over than transaction.

 

[upNdown]

You could have sold those to him at $575 and stopped the price increase. But you chose not to. Who is to blame here? He certainly didn’t MAKE you sell those at that price. You chose to accept the price increase for a few bucks and you are even more guilty than him for contributing to this. If no one sold him racks at crazy prices then crazy prices would not have been paid. It’s the sellers fault for giving into greed, not the buyer who simply wants to acquire something

It’s almost a fair point. I’m certainly a contributor at some level. But your suppositions are ridiculous. I found the old thread. He was actually looking for 8 racks @ 1250 per. He found them before noon.

No, he didn’t MAKE me or anybody else sell at that price. But CONTEXT! This offer to buy was his money-flex response to somebody refusing to sell to him. If we all refused to sell, he would have kept raising the price until people did sell.
And I was in a position where I wanted 2-3 more racks for my set. So it was either sell my rack for a profit or face the prospect of paying over 2x more for the additional racks I wanted. Because he was clearly setting a new market price.
And BTW, I was right. This happened on 8/22/21. I challenge you to find a sale of nr mint PCA secondary $5s that sold since that day for less.

 

[doublebooyah85]

I concur - Many blame @Windwalker for extravagant pricing, but he's not. Those that do are only using him as a fall guy.

If I went out today and offered $20 a chip for Tigers, it would not make all tigers more expensive. It sure as hell wouldn't make the Boat chips more expensive, or any other chip. I would simply have payed over market value to get what I wanted. The chips I bought would go for $20 each, and the remaining Tigers in the world would sit idly in the classifieds, still looking for the right connection between buyer and seller.

It was every other purchase since then that railed prices. It takes a buyer and a seller to set a price, and a continual stream of buyers/sellers to "set" a price. Even then the price really isn't "set". It's just what they go for as of the last transaction.

Perhaps @ekricket is right and the CODID payments from the government boosted prices. Perhaps the chip market languished at $1-$2 per chip for so long it trailed inflation, and the jump was just a correction - perhaps even an over-correction.

But nobody should poo-poo WW for getting what he wanted, and for finding a break-point where fingers were pried off chips and replaced with cash.

Two biggest contributors right there. Chips certainly trailed inflation and Covid payments made almost all hobbies/collections increase in transaction. Some have settled back.

I don’t think chippin will back to anywhere close to what it was. And I don’t think we are over saturated when inventory sells out in seconds over dibs or days weeks and months through vendor sales. Very small % of Inventory sits/doesn’t sell when you really think about it.

 

[upNdown]

I work with folks and have for many years, that are very well off. You have to realize that $1500 per rack to them is like paying $5 or less. They are not doing it in spite, they are paying for something they want. With that amount of money, he probably does not care what anyone thinks about what he buys. He definitely does not care to "spite" anyone. It is not being arrogant, it is simply a transaction.

I have no doubt that you’re right about that, most of the time. But were you following his antics closely that summer? He seemed borderline unhinged a few times. He quit the site for a few days because somebody made an angry face at him. I know this because he himself ranted about it.
I’m not just saying this off the cuff or out of jealousy. The sequence of events of the bourbon st. purchases and the PCA purchases actually support the spite allegations. Both times he angrily ranted about people refusing to sell to him, before he returned to make way over the top purchases.
Unfortunately he deleted much or all of those rants. But I can’t be the only one who remembers.

 

[cpac54]

I have no doubt that you’re right about that, most of the time. But were you following his antics closely that summer? He seemed borderline unhinged a few times. He quit the site for a few days because somebody made an angry face at him. I know this because he himself ranted about it.
I’m not just saying this off the cuff or out of jealousy. The sequence of events of the bourbon st. purchases and the PCA purchases actually support the spite allegations. Both times he angrily ranted about people refusing to sell to him, before he returned to make way over the top purchases.
Unfortunately he deleted much or all of those rants. But I can’t be the only one who remembers.

(I'll see myself out now...)

 

[BPTDirector]

Some of those privileged to have whatever they want get a little upset when it is denied to them, so they end up using our greed and want against us to leave that bitter taste in the mouth, usually right after you think you were winning. That’s present everywhere my friend. Make peace with it and you will live a happier life.

 

[JeepologyOffroad]

Spite buy yes. Which I of course don’t like or agree with. But you are missing some details. The flip side of it was a spite buy too. It wasn’t because a seller refused to sell to him. The PCA were listed at a fair price. He posted in thread he would take them. Then behind the scenes after that fact they were group bought strictly to prevent him from buying them because it was him. Unsure what they said to convince seller to not go thru with the deal, but that’s what happened. These weren’t even secondaries. They were tire primaries. He would have likely dumped them shortly after.

Edit: still not saying I side with spite buying whatsoever but just stating the flip side that is not being said.

 

[w00zie]

What I found fascinating was how he approached acquiring chips outside of the forum. He used his professional skills and network (and money of course) and ended up with an incredible collection. The throwing money at folks here on PCF was not that impressive to me lol. And yes, I think he set the bar (= prices) higher for the whole chip market, at least the higher end chips.

 

[upNdown]

Spite buy yes. Which I of course don’t like or agree with. But you are missing some details. The flip side of it was a spite buy too. It wasn’t because a seller refused to sell to him. The PCA were listed at a fair price. He posted in thread he would take them. Then behind the scenes after that fact they were group bought strictly to prevent him from buying them because it was him. Unsure what they said to convince seller to not go thru with the deal, but that’s what happened. These weren’t even secondaries. They were tire primaries. He would have likely dumped them shortly after.

Edit: still not saying I side with spite buying whatsoever but just stating the flip side that is not being said.

Thank you. I didn’t remember the exact details of that non-sale.

Some of those privileged to have whatever they want get a little upset when it is denied to them, so they end up using our greed and want against us to leave that bitter taste in the mouth, usually right after you think you were winning. That’s present everywhere my friend. Make peace with it and you will live a happier life.

I appreciate the words of wisdom. Believe it or not, I’m pretty happy with what I’ve got. Ranting here is like flushing away nonsense crap before it builds up. If that means PCF is my toilet - sorry and thank you?

 

[Rieguy]

I feel like there's merit to most posts here. WW did me a huge solid almost no one else would ever do here and didn't ask for anything in return and never mentioned it publicly. Incredible act of kindness. He also vastly drove up market prices, in a couple specific instances through "spite-buying". People are free to buy and throw cash around as they see fit. Whales are never going to go away and some currently still actively drive up prices. Sometimes that sucks but it is what it is.

Many people were friendly with the guy, myself included. Some were ticked off by the public spats and what those entailed. I largely stayed on the sidelines during them because not everything is everyone's business here and people are capable of defending themselves or dealing with the response to their words/actions. Not sure we need any revisionist history here or to even rehash all these old things. I can simultaneously appreciate what was done for me and leave people to their gripes.

The flip side of it was a spite buy too. It wasn’t because a seller just refused to sell to him. The PCA were listed at a fair price. He posted in thread he would take them. Then behind the scenes after that fact they were group bought strictly to prevent him from buying them because it was him.

That whole situation was crazy, because the people who likely convinced him to not sell to WW are the same people that would shit themselves if someone did not honor dibs in a dibs thread.

 

[David O]

Spite buy yes. Which I of course don’t like or agree with. But you are missing some details. The flip side of it was a spite buy too. It wasn’t because a seller refused to sell to him. The PCA were listed at a fair price. He posted in thread he would take them. Then behind the scenes after that fact they were group bought strictly to prevent him from buying them because it was him. Unsure what they said to convince seller to not go thru with the deal, but that’s what happened. These weren’t even secondaries. They were tire primaries. He would have likely dumped them shortly after.

Edit: still not saying I side with spite buying whatsoever but just stating the flip side that is not being said.

This brings more light to the subject. We never heard that. WW has moved on and everyone here is still talking about it. Where are the hurt feelings or anger coming from?

I have no doubt that you’re right about that, most of the time. But were you following his antics closely that summer? He seemed borderline unhinged a few times. He quit the site for a few days because somebody made an angry face at him. I know this because he himself ranted about it.
I’m not just saying this off the cuff or out of jealousy. The sequence of events of the bourbon st. purchases and the PCA purchases actually support the spite allegations. Both times he angrily ranted about people refusing to sell to him, before he returned to make way over the top purchases.
Unfortunately he deleted much or all of those rants. But I can’t be the only one who remembers.

I have been wronged and sometimes I just do what I have to and other times I just let it go.

 

[David O]

I feel like there's merit to most posts here. WW did me a huge solid almost no one else would ever do here and didn't ask for anything in return and never mentioned it publicly. Incredible act of kindness. He also vastly drove up market prices, in a couple specific instances through "spite-buying". People are free to buy and throw cash around as they see fit. Whales are never going to go away and some currently still actively drive up prices. Sometimes that sucks but it is what it is.

Many people were friendly with the guy, myself included. Some were ticked off by the public spats and what those entailed. I largely stayed on the sidelines during them because not everything is everyone's business here and people are capable of defending themselves or dealing with the response to their words/actions. Not sure we need any revisionist history here or to even rehash all these old things. I can simultaneously appreciate what was done for me and leave people to their gripes.


That whole situation was crazy, because the people who likely convinced him to not sell to WW are the same people that would shit themselves if someone did not honor dibs in a dibs thread.

Not only honoring dibs but also honoring FROR. I had that happen to me by someone I trusted a ton. That person ended up not replying to my question until he flipped my chips for a HUGE profit! I ended up just letting it go but I can tell you that my "circle of trust" is much smaller.

Also not selling my chips at "Friends" prices unless they are truly a friend! I have seen that come up and bite me in the past,

 

[warma]

Over saturated? A ton of photos are kind here are. Fortunately, most chips are still gorgeous, even without the color adjustments. Like these.

 

[JeepologyOffroad]

That whole situation was crazy, because the people who likely convinced him to not sell to WW are the same people that would shit themselves if someone did not honor dibs in a dibs thread.

I definitely see and understand that flip side too though. On the surface chipping may seem trivial… but it’s actually very emotional. A hobby many of us are attracted to like a magnet. A part of our lives.

Many of us spend a lot of time on this forum - spending lots of money, refining our collections into something unique and meaningful to each of us, making great friends… and of course enemies. It’s easy to get carried away within this world when all that is usually needed is to take a step back for a moment.

 

[MrCatPants]

Two biggest contributors right there. Chips certainly trailed inflation and Covid payments made almost all hobbies/collections increase in transaction. Some have settled back.

I don’t think chippin will back to anywhere close to what it was. And I don’t think we are over saturated when inventory sells out in seconds over dibs or days weeks and months through vendor sales. Very small % of Inventory sits/doesn’t sell when you really think about it.

COVID payments were a piece, but most households saw a significant reduction in expenses on 'disposable' items - with vacations, eating out, etc. gone that money had to find a place to go. Most high end collectible markets (even things like fine wines, etc.) went crazy at the same time because of the increase in disposable cash.

If I was setting root cause I'd say 20% WW/80% Covid disposable income increases.