Have we finally reached market saturation?? (13 Viewers)

[David O]

I definitely see and understand that flip side too though. On the surface chipping may seem trivial… but it’s actually very emotional. A hobby many of us are attracted to like a magnet. A part of our lives.

Many of us spend a lot of time on this forum - spending lots of money, refining our collections into something unique and meaningful to each of us, making great friends… and of course enemies. It’s easy to get carried away within this world when all that is usually needed is to take a step back for a moment.

Amen, at the end of the day they are only round clay disks.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

It seems that many get upset about these buys and I can guarantee you the onlooker is way more emotional than the purchaser has over than transaction.

Very much a Thanos "I don't even know who you are" moment lol, remember you're a blip on the radar and life's not fair.

 

[chrismurda]

Amen, at the end of the day they are only round clay disks.

Tina would disagree with this statement.

 

[ekricket]

I have no doubt that you’re right about that, most of the time. But were you following his antics closely that summer? He seemed borderline unhinged a few times. He quit the site for a few days because somebody made an angry face at him. I know this because he himself ranted about it.
I’m not just saying this off the cuff or out of jealousy. The sequence of events of the bourbon st. purchases and the PCA purchases actually support the spite allegations. Both times he angrily ranted about people refusing to sell to him, before he returned to make way over the top purchases.
Unfortunately he deleted much or all of those rants. But I can’t be the only one who remembers.

Speaking of rants, yo pot, this is kettle. Are we going to be able to dredge up some “rants” anyone has been on in the future to throw shit on their intent? He bought some shit he wanted, I don’t think his malicious intent was to drive the price of any chips up for the whole world.

Hell, if dumping close to 3 million NAGB chips over the course of the last few years hasn’t affected the market ( and yes, there are diehards that claim this had no effect on any chip market) then one guy alone can’t affect it as a whole that much. The market claims to be pretty invulnerable to any forces affecting it.

 

[upNdown]

Speaking of rants, yo pot, this is kettle. Are we going to be able to dredge up some “rants” anyone has been on in the future to throw shit on their intent? He bought some shit he wanted, I don’t think his malicious intent was to drive the price of any chips up for the whole world.

Hell, if dumping close to 3 million NAGB chips over the course of the last few years hasn’t affected the market ( and yes, there are diehards that claim this had no effect on any chip market) then one guy alone can’t affect it as a whole that much. The market claims to be pretty invulnerable to any forces affecting it.

I know I’m often a pot or a kettle - we’re pretty much all hypocrites unless we never speak. And I speak a lot. I’d be happy to leave it at what @Rieguy said on the previous page - ww affected the market and ww was good to some people. That’s fine with me.

 

[Taghkanic]

Ovo is a black hole, you may as well grind your chips up, because you are never seeing them again. Pillar of the community.

But does he have an asshat list?

 

[BarrieJ3]

I just don't get why we can't have active discussion.

Many great points are made. Both on thoughts of our small economy, the effect that whales (not limited to WW but including him) have on it, collections in general, etc etc. I have yet to see hominem attacks on WW, yet so many people are quick to ask why he's being attacked.

The UpNDown and Jeep exchange was fantastic, one person brought up a scenario that had value, the other added missing knowledge, and there was a beginning and close to the scenario and its application to the thread.

But so many people for some reason want to say "why are we talking about this?" Because it's an interesting topic or because it holds value to us or because people are bored on an afternoon or because people don't know things and want to figure them out or any other reason.

Not picking a fight, but just sharing what I think is insight:

WW has moved on and everyone here is still talking about it. Where are the hurt feelings or anger coming from?

I don't see hurt feelings or anger, I see people discussing things. And we discuss because it's important to us and holds value.

You have at minimum 5 posts of your circle getting smaller due to a specific scenario where you wronged. I don't assume you brought it up here again out of hurt feelings or anger, but rather to share a view point that you think holds value and is pertinent to the conversation.

I just don't understand why the same type of conversation or scenarios that happen to involve WW are met with derision or the sentiment "move on".

 

[gopherblue]

(I'll see myself out now...)

Is that an old man on a porch?

 

[Taghkanic]

So sorry I started this thread. My thoughts really aren’t that deep guys, sorry if I was misinterpreted.

Forget it, BPTD, it’s the Internet.

 

[gopherblue]

But does he have an asshat list?

God, I hope I’m not on that one too.

 

[ssanel54]

It’s almost a fair point. I’m certainly a contributor at some level. But your suppositions are ridiculous. I found the old thread. He was actually looking for 8 racks @ 1250 per. He found them before noon.

No, he didn’t MAKE me or anybody else sell at that price. But CONTEXT! This offer to buy was his money-flex response to somebody refusing to sell to him. If we all refused to sell, he would have kept raising the price until people did sell.
And I was in a position where I wanted 2-3 more racks for my set. So it was either sell my rack for a profit or face the prospect of paying over 2x more for the additional racks I wanted. Because he was clearly setting a new market price.
And BTW, I was right. This happened on 8/22/21. I challenge you to find a sale of nr mint PCA secondary $5s that sold since that day for less.

In hindsight is it possible that your idea of market price wasn’t realistic. Sounds like you wanted a few more racks, but no one was selling them at your price point?

I think we’ve seen a lot of that recently. People paid top dollar to get their chips, and they are hesitant to sell anything at a loss, therefore the market dries up and people lose interest in chasing those sets.

 

[gopherblue]

All this talk about that guy not impacting the market is lol. Simply put, his acquisitiveness changed the market…no one wanted to sell anything for anything less than stupid pricing because they didn’t want to miss out on the golden goose. Those levels are still being felt today.

 

[upNdown]

In hindsight is it possible that your idea of market price wasn’t realistic. Sounds like you wanted a few more racks, but no one was selling them at your price point?

I think we’ve seen a lot of that recently. People paid top dollar to get their chips, and they are hesitant to sell anything at a loss, therefore the market dries up and people lose interest in chasing those sets.

Oh for sure. I was lucky to get my rack for $550 or whatever when I did. The going price on those racks had been $400 for a couple of years but had climbed a hundred or so that year. And fast forward a few months to when this happened - there were a couple of guys with wanted ads out offering maybe up to or even over $750 and not getting responses.
So for sure my hopes of scoring more racks in the $500ish neighborhood had dwindled. And that’s why it was so easy for me to give up all hope when WW offered $1250 - the writing had already been on the wall, he just put up a neon sign.

 

[ekricket]

Oh for sure. I was lucky to get my rack for $550 or whatever when I did. The going price on those racks had been $400 for a couple of years but had climbed a hundred or so that year. And fast forward a few months to when this happened - there were a couple of guys with wanted ads out offering maybe up to or even over $750 and not getting responses.
So for sure my hopes of scoring more racks in the $500ish neighborhood had dwindled. And that’s why it was so easy for me to give up all hope when WW offered $1250 - the writing had already been on the wall, he just put up a neon sign.

Just making sure we are in the same page here-

People wouldn’t sell at “reasonable” prices. They refused large offers and said they wanted “more”.
A guy came along and paid their “more” price
He set the market, not them
And now we can’t have nice things

 

[Taghkanic]

I think one of the biggest differences might be simply that the JACK Detroit chips were all uncirculated, primary and secondary. Every set was a near-mint set.

Exactly. That sale was unusually epic, and it seems like Jacks are holding their value well despite huge quantities of other RHCs coming available, largely thanks to @TheChipRoom.

Indeed, given the way so many other chips have been hoovered up by a handful of collectors, one might argue that it is only the TCR sales which have moderated the general upswing in prices. (It’s got to be several million by now, right?) If all those chips had not been saved and sold by Jim, imagine how short the supply of chips would be now. Prices would be even crazier.

I also want to pushback at the notion that just pointing out the inevitable market effects of certain collecting behaviors does not automatically mean that those who notice it “hate” the collectors.

One can observe a phenomenon, and see that it can have some negative impacts, without that meaning the observers are haters. This leap in logic suggests to me that fanboys are more eager to be seen defending certain people than to have a frank discussion of reality.

 

[upNdown]

Just making sure we are in the same page here-

People wouldn’t sell at “reasonable” prices. They refused large offers and said they wanted “more”.
A guy came along and paid their “more” price
He set the market, not them
And now we can’t have nice things

I don’t agree with the way you’ve characterized everything there. You’re exaggerating (as we all do) to make your point. I never said we can’t have nice things. I said he affected the market. And even if I concede that nobody in the world was selling at $800 (I’m not sure that’s true, but sure, what the hell) the fact is that he went straight to $1250 and that none of them have sold for less, publicly, in the 18 months since.
I think that’s a fair example of him affecting the market.

 

[ssanel54]

Oh for sure. I was lucky to get my rack for $550 or whatever when I did. The going price on those racks had been $400 for a couple of years but had climbed a hundred or so that year. And fast forward a few months to when this happened - there were a couple of guys with wanted ads out offering maybe up to or even over $750 and not getting responses.
So for sure my hopes of scoring more racks in the $500ish neighborhood had dwindled. And that’s why it was so easy for me to give up all hope when WW offered $1250 - the writing had already been on the wall, he just put up a neon sign.

We’ll I did my part and sold my 6 racks back to the community at chip room prices…

 

[MeridianFC]

Forget it, BPTD, it’s the Internet.

Jake Gittes approved. Well played.

 

[merkong]

I’ve reached wallet saturation

 

[Taghkanic]

I don’t know if he treated his “friends” any different than his mortal enemies.

Everyone has their own anecdotal and limited experience with sellers/buyers. It’s anecdotal. And limited. Anyway, here’s some of mine:

Before I’d had any prior dealings with a certain breezy perambulator, he sold me some chips which he knew (from my Wanted pleas) that I badly needed... Sold ’em to me at an astronomical price. He insisted he would not take less, and I relented out of desperation.

Our deal came relatively early in his “chipping journey.” Later I saw that he did sell some of the same denom for a lot less... And then even later he tried to buy back from the community some of this denom at almost double my original purchase price. (I did not take that profit, as I still needed those chips.)

Whatever, that kind of thing happens. And I’m not going to rehash the full extent of our negotiation, which went way off the rails. But FWIW, as we were wrapping up I gave the seller a very gentle and (I thought) helpful piece of advice about unwritten but totally standard PCF etiquette. A minor point, just something I thought a relatively newbie could benefit from knowing.

Big mistake. The dude went absolutely nuclear on me... Even though I made it repeatedly clear that I was not mad at him, and not even criticizing him. I was just trying to give him a heads up, to help avoid him getting into needless spats with other, pickier members in future deals.

Again, at that point I knew nothing about him, and he knew nothing about me.

Eventually, when (a) it became clear that I was not a pushover and (b) that my advice did in fact reflect common accepted practice on PCF, he did back down and apologize. He also offered a rebate, which I did not want. At last after much back-and-forth discussion, we wrapped things up on what seemed like a positive note.

Unfortunately, subsequent interactions suggested that despite the seemingly heartfelt apology, I had been put on a permanent shitlist.

 

[ekricket]

I don’t agree with the way you’ve characterized everything there. You’re exaggerating (as we all do) to make your point. I never said we can’t have nice things. I said he affected the market. And even if I concede that nobody in the world was selling at $800 (I’m not sure that’s true, but sure, what the hell) the fact is that he went straight to $1250 and that none of them have sold for less, publicly, in the 18 months since.
I think that’s a fair example of him affecting the market.

I think if you strip away the emotion and look at the facts that’s about all you are left with. There were always at least two sides to any of those transactions.

But hey, let’s say ok, what do we do now? Sell 19 racks of bike tire PCA’s for $450 a rack and all harmony will be restored? I don’t see that affecting much, but apparently it does.

 

[Taghkanic]

[...] Covid payments made almost all hobbies/collections increase in transaction.

I have to wonder again... How much exactly did y’all get in COVID payments? Enough to buy more than 1-2 racks of mediocre chips? Or maybe one small check, or even none because of income qualifications? IDGI.

 

[warma]

I’ve reached wallet saturation

I’ll take some to help ease your burden

 

[Taghkanic]

Is that an old man on a porch?

I think it’s an old man driving a scrub donkey cart.

 

[MrCatPants]

I have to wonder again... How much exactly did y’all get in COVID payments? Enough to buy more than 1-2 racks of mediocre chips? Or maybe one small check, or even none because of income qualifications? IDGI.

I mentioned above I think it was more the cash available from reductions in household expenditures vs. stimulus.

Or PPP loans if you owned a small business. Soooooooo much free money given out to people who didn't end up needing it that I see over and over again first hand in my work. A staggering amount of wealth transfer took place moving money to the "kind of rich" a few million at a time.

 

[bluegill]

dumping close to 3 million NAGB chips over the course of the last few years

The published numbers for the ES, AS, BTP, and SB come to about 280,000. Were there 2.7 million chips between the Chickens, Trumans, RPCs, and Tigers?

 

[ekricket]

The published numbers for the ES, AS, BTP, and SB come to about 280,000. Were there 2.7 million chips between the Chickens, Trumans, RPCs, and Tigers?

Who knows? Do you think knowing the truth would affect anything? It’s as good a number as any until there is better.

What’s the number that affects/doesn’t affect the market? There may not be one, but if there is maybe we should know it to see if we are approaching it or have passed it? What do you think?

 

[Taghkanic]

I mentioned above I think it was more the cash available from reductions in household expenditures vs. stimulus.

Huh. I guess everyone’s experience was different. I suppose I saved a little money on dining out. Can’t say as any of that went into poker chips.

If anything, my household expenditures went up during the pandemic. Because we were home all the time... which meant that people started really looking around their places and noticing all the deferred home improvement projects they could finally address.

It was an epic time to be in the faux wood window blind / embroidered throw pillow / fancy comforter cover biz.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Angry old man chipper: throws out unsubstantiated misinformation to prove a subjective point.

Chippers respond with facts, questions, supported response.

Angry old man chipper: yells that it doesn’t matter, repeats some logical fallacy.

 

[MrCatPants]

Huh. I guess everyone’s experience was different. I suppose I saved a little money on dining out. Can’t say as any of that went into poker chips.

If anything, my household expenditures went up during the pandemic. Because we were home all the time... which meant that people started really looking around their places and noticing all the deferred home improvement projects they could finally address.

It was an epic time to be in the faux wood window blind / embroidered throw pillow / fancy comforter cover biz.