Host can't pay out everyone, what to do? (47 Viewers)

[Moxie Mike]

The more important question is, did the host know. Seems like from the tenor of the OP that the host was not in on it, but that doesn't absolve the host of liability for extending credit to BL, IMO.

I think it could go either way. From the way OP makes things sound, the host is being rather cavalier about this whole situation. That's another red flag.

IMO, as a host your reputation is everything. I would never put myself in such as predicament - but if I somehow did, I'd be freaking out and completely fucking embarrassed.

Not the point of the OP, but establishing an escrow in advance, playing that night, and getting paid (or refunded the unused escrow) in a few days is totally reasonable at these stakes.

I rarely play in private games and never at these stakes, so I'll take your word on that. I guess if that's the protocol and all players are informed of the procedure, that makes sense.

 

[Taghkanic]

Bad debts aside, blockchain technologies and certain cryptos are literally perfect for this kind of use case. If I hosted high stakes (which I don't), I would have dedicated crypto wallets for each player. I would have the keys, but they could send funds and observe balances at all times. Pretty easy to set up actually.

I’d love to read a primer on that. (I have a Coinbase account, but am not terribly sophisticated about using it.)

 

[Moxie Mike]

It is a red flag to play in a game where you know the host casually but aren't really friends?

In a vacuum, no not necessarily.

But in the context of this situation and the benefit of hindsight, yes I think it is. The host doesn't seem to be operating with any sense of urgency with respect to what is IMO a rather unbecoming situation. At this point, the host's behavior with respect to this situation is a reflection of his character.

To treat a new player (or anyone) this way is unacceptable. OP knew the risks just like we all do - but that's not really the point. We're not here to blame the victim - nor was that the purpose of my remarks.

 

[CHP TD]

Are other winners getting paid (big winners) outside of yourself?

It may suck to not collect but why does host owe anyone — no rake, he’s not making money. Granted if these are all friends I’ve seen people go on payment plans. If strangers are in the game then they should definitely pay the winners out.

Pay outs are the house responsibility. Like in a casino. Casinos dont say "oh its that guy over there that owes you money?!?!? Its the job of the host.

I host - I run the bank I eat any fukups that i make on my bank. If you cant do this you cant host. Clearly this host is so oblivious on how to run a game I would NEVER go back.

If i were in this situation (down thousands) i'd be off to small claims court. Only costs $60 to engage the courts here.

This is ALL on the host. Period.

Its BS!

 

[horseshoez]

This situation is really tough and uncomfortable. I don't want to point fingers or shame anyone, but ultimately, the responsibility falls on the host. He allowed this to happen, and now it's his job to sort it out. It's unfortunate, but that's the reality.

 

[Taghkanic]

I don’t think it’s a red flag to attend a game where you only know the host casually, and aren’t good friends.

I’ve made a lot of good and even close friends through poker games. We didn’t always know each other well (or even at all) before poker.

Some games begin and end with a group of old friends, and run that way for years... Still a host would have to be very fortunate to never need to invite any new players, including people you only know a little bit.

Regs recommend other players, and bring them to your games. But often the host has to do the recruiting. You meet a potential player at another game, or socially, or through work. The game comes up, and the new guys gets a tryout invite. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn’t.

One thing I never imagined when going to a casual or friend’s game was any possibility that they wouldn’t pay winners. This situation is a real outlier in my experience. I’ve only heard people getting stiffed like that a big city private game run very obviously for profit, and organized by shady characters.

I can’t image this game lasts long with this type of host. Even if he never stiffs anyone again in this specific way, someone who does that will pull other crap, too. The more I think about it, I would issue one more stern demand, and then write the debt (and the game) off as a loss.

 

[Labrat]

We're not here to blame the victim...

Unless he was playing in a miniskirt and fishnet stockings, of course.

 

[Jimulacrum]

In a vacuum, no not necessarily.

But in the context of this situation and the benefit of hindsight, yes I think it is. The host doesn't seem to be operating with any sense of urgency with respect to what is IMO a rather unbecoming situation. At this point, the host's behavior with respect to this situation is a reflection of his character.

To treat a new player (or anyone) this way is unacceptable. OP knew the risks just like we all do - but that's not really the point. We're not here to blame the victim - nor was that the purpose of my remarks.

The more I think about it, the fact that OP is a new player makes me 10,000 times more suspicious that this was a premeditated freeroll.

It would be bad enough to foist debt on a player who knows the host well. Even then, it's a serious misstep. Anyone who has hosted more than once knows this.

Doing it to a new guy—i.e., a person who doesn't know you or the debtor—is so egregious as to be unbelievable as an honest mistake. It smells like a setup. It's especially noteworthy that he paid out everyone else, and OP was singled out as one of the players who would eat the IOU. Presumably this was based on him being one of the big winners, but maybe that was just a coincidence.

It makes me wonder. @Rhodeman77, what of the other big winner who had to eat some debt? Was he also a new player? Do you have any idea what he has dealt with trying to get his money?

If it becomes clear that it was an intentional setup, my list of suggested solutions opens up quite a bit, depending in part on how much information the host has about you. But it's nothing I'd want to post on a public-facing forum.

 

[legend672]

These problems don’t arise when you buy in with cash and rebuy with cash like normal people

 

[Benjaminotaur]

The more I think about it, the fact that OP is a new player makes me 10,000 times more suspicious that this was a premeditated freeroll.

It would be bad enough to foist debt on a player who knows the host well. Even then, it's a serious misstep. Anyone who has hosted more than once knows this.

Doing it to a new guy—i.e., a person who doesn't know you or the debtor—is so egregious as to be unbelievable as an honest mistake. It smells like a setup. It's especially noteworthy that he paid out everyone else, and OP was singled out as one of the players who would eat the IOU. Presumably this was based on him being one of the big winners, but maybe that was just a coincidence.

It makes me wonder. @Rhodeman77, what of the other big winner who had to eat some debt? Was he also a new player? Do you have any idea what he has dealt with trying to get his money?

If it becomes clear that it was an intentional setup, my list of suggested solutions opens up quite a bit, depending in part on how much information the host has about you. But it's nothing I'd want to post on a public-facing forum.

It would also be interesting to know if the OP was up big when the markers started flying.

I had a guy at our game buy in over and over until he can string together a good stack and then utilize his muscle. We played super cheap tourneys at the time, so he could make it work often enough to make it worth his while without the risk ever getting too big.

But if it WAS shady in the game OP was playing in, I could definitely see that being a good strategy. Try and win back a big chunk of it, all while having little exposure by not settling up on the back end of it failed

 

[Rhodeman77]

These problems don’t arise when you buy in with cash and rebuy with cash like normal people

But cash opens up other problems. I have had friends get robbed at gun point in a game with all cash. One of the players had it happen to him twice! He rarely plays outside of casinos now.

 

[BarrieJ3]

This thread has made me realize that PCF is filled with people comfortable walking around with 10s of thousands of dollars in their pockets/bags, to a known location where they expect all the other attendees to also have potentially 10s of thousands of dollars in their pockets/bags.

And here I'm uncomfortable playing with more than like $2k cash in one location.

 

[legend672]

But cash opens up other problems. I have had friends get robbed at gun point in a game with all cash. One of the players had it happen to him twice! He rarely plays outside of casinos now.

In Toledo ?

 

[SwissChip]

It‘s called „cash game“
Not „Venmo game“ or „I pay later game“
Bank man is in charge.

Edit: we use chips because it‘s easier to handle. Apparently not…

 

[4SUMERZ]

Its unfortunate for certain. Hopefully the OP will eventually get paid. I'm glad I'm not playing or even dream of playing in those type of cash games.
I'm just as happy playing low stakes with 7 friends, that the total max at the table in cash may be $600-$800. No problem buying or paying in cash, no Venmo, Paypal or e transfers for initial buy-ins, and cash only to get more chips on re-buys or top ups.
For security, etc, I can see using Venmo, PP or e-transfers for high stakes, but it is, and always should be the host that is responsible for the cash out at the end of the session. He should pay up, then dealing with those that can't pay their buy-ins. If the host can't cover the debts, then stop hosting.

 

[Rhodeman77]

In Toledo ?

No, this was several years ago in Cleveland. Both times the robbers were caught because of cell phone records. But the money was already gone by the time they were arrested, victims never received anything.

 

[Highli99]

This thread has made me realize that PCF is filled with people comfortable walking around with 10s of thousands of dollars in their pockets/bags, to a known location where they expect all the other attendees to also have potentially 10s of thousands of dollars in their pockets/bags.

And here I'm uncomfortable playing with more than like $2k cash in one location.

I actually think most are just playing much lower stakes where the risks and logistical challenges of cash are less apparent.

I've only had $10k in my pocket once in my life and it was walking from the Aria to the main event buy in across the street. I was scared as hell. Even standing in the very long buy-in line was weird but I was grateful for the tactical cops patrolling the area.

But at a him game with people, I don't know that well. Prob not happening. To each their own….

But again, crypto solves some of these challenges for those willing to try.

 

[Benjaminotaur]

But cash opens up other problems. I have had friends get robbed at gun point in a game with all cash. One of the players had it happen to him twice! He rarely plays outside of casinos now.

I totally understand this aspect of the problem. I’m surprised you haven’t heard more of this kind of thing with the bigger pros and YouTubers. They video themselves walking around with thousands in their backpacks. Are they not having any issues? Or are we just not hearing about them? At least for them there is a pretty good chain of custody and proof of what they won. For someone coming from a home game, it’d be open season

 

[Darson]

Being PCF I’m surprised we’ve not asked this question: were the chips used a custom set? If so and they’re not easily duplicated then at the very least the host should have paid you out in chips which you can redeem or buy in with at the next game. Not an ideal solution but better than a hope and a prayer.

 

[Labrat]

This thread has made me realize that PCF is filled with people comfortable walking around with 10s of thousands of dollars in their pockets/bags, to a known location where they expect all the other attendees to also have potentially 10s of thousands of dollars in their pockets/bags.

And here I'm uncomfortable playing with more than like $2k cash in one location.

.25/.25 PLO forevaaaaahhhhhh.

 

[TomC727]

Another idea:

If invited, agree to play at the next game.

Dont buy in upon arrival. Once everyone else is there, audibly let the host know that you need to get paid immediately for what you won last time.

If paid, don’t play. Leave and never go back.

If not paid, at least everyone else there has been warned what they are risking. You’ll probably never get the money, but at least some consequences get meted out.

Love this idea.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Commas make it confusing, but it almost sounds like the loser can sue the winner for what they know was paid to them because they know they should have the money or property? Or because the wager was illegal?

I can't believe you confused me more than the lawyer talk did

 

[chippitydoodah]

Being PCF I’m surprised we’ve not asked this question: were the chips used a custom set? If so and they’re not easily duplicated then at the very least the host should have paid you out in chips which you can redeem or buy in with at the next game. Not an ideal solution but better than a hope and a prayer.

Those chips were worthless then and they'll be worthless later

 

[chippitydoodah]

When I bring in a new player I treat them like a casino would treat a whale. Not for their money but because new players are hard to come by. I want them to have a good time. Hopefully not lose too much. Get along with all the regulars. I couldn't imagine turning to him at the end of the night and be like, "uh, hey man, I can't pay you what you won" .

 

[grandmeme]

I've just been catching up on these points and I think all the points have been covered, so I'll share my own experience with this scenario.

Two years ago, at around this same time, I was invited to a raked $2/$5 NLHE home game by someone I regularly played with at the casino (super common here, given the ludicrous rake in the casino). He seemed like a decent guy, and I had been looking for a decent Wednesday game, so why not? It was a $200 - $1000 game, and so I brought two bullets with me and the reg who invited me came along as well.

It was a fun game. Lots of banter, drinks, and service throughout the night, but as far as poker wise I was pretty card dead even with a softer game than usual. I ended up stuck maybe a hundred or so by the end of the night. Not bad for free drinks and dinner I suppose, and it was so soft that I could definitely come back and try to win a few bullets.

The problem was cash out. I was in for around $1500, and two players were on credit from the host. I had no idea if this was a usual occurence, but again as @Rhodeman77 pointed out, as a first timer you have no idea what the normal procedures are. I just assumed that they were good for the ~4-5k they borrowed, and the host took a rake so I wasn't particularly worried.

As I went to cash out with the host, he told me that the other players couldn't pay him tonight and therefore I would have to get my cash in a few days, because I was a new player and not a "reg". Hold on, WTF?? Remember that I was a LOSER in this session!

I told him that there was a rake and therefore he should be paying me with that money if he was doing credit. He told me that he had to pay for the dealer and waitresses and therefore I would have to wait before being paid. At this point, my buddy who invited me to the game was furious, and demanded that I get my buy-in back. He ended up reimbursing my buy-in (he definitely didn't have to), and apologised profusely. I considered myself extremely lucky. I immediately left straight after, as quite frankly I didn't want anything else to do in the situation.

The month after, I learnt that my buddy had completely wiped out his game, and recovered his money owed. He ended up private messaging, calling, and meeting up with all the players, especially the players who weren't there, as well as other game hosts in the area. Sure enough, the host's reputation took a nosedive and he wasn't able to play in any other private game for quite a while until all the debts were settled. I suppose that's the only thing you could do at this point if you want to recover any money.

Good luck my friend, I hope you get at least some money back.

 

[pokerplayingpisces]

I would also be interested in the relationship between the BL and the host. Are they a regular? Was it their first time there? Are they friends?

I agree with the sentiment that the BL never intended to pay. They were freerolling, and were gonna win big or not pay.
As others have mentioned, I wouldn’t be surprised if the game was a setup, and that the BL and host were working together. Either get paid big, or don’t pay up.

I completely agree that it’s the host responsibility. It’s their game, they invited the players, and they issued the credit. The host should be making the OP and other big winners whole (immediately). Then the host can focus on collecting his money from the BL. As a host it’s important to maintain the integrity and reputation of your game. As all of us know that host, if your game is not growing, it’s dying. If you develop a reputation for this, it will be very difficult to recruit new players. Like a couple others have mentioned, it’s incidents like this that cause games to get reported or robbed. It’s also in the host’s best interest in regards to his own safety. The OP is being more than patient and pretty nice about it. You piss off the wrong people and they may not give you much time and forcefully demand to get what belongs to them.

I hope the OP gets paid. I’m not sure it’s gonna happen. Either way, I wouldn’t play in that game again.

 

[allforcharity]

Holy shit, I just realized my initials are BL

 

[bergs]

lol, ask OJ how this kind of thing turns out. “I’m just recovering what’s mine”.

Honestly this is my first instinct as well, just go get it. However I have been involved in a few things that ended up with the “victim” actually being the one that gets punished because their reaction was similar - take matters into their own hands and restore justice to America.

Pretty much your only recourse is social pressure I think.

It’s a horrible idea to confront the host at the game to begin with but it you’re going to do it, I wouldn’t do it alone was my point. You have no idea if the host is in on it with one or more players.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Can someone please explain how whether the game is raked or not is relevant to the story? I've seen it referenced several times and I'm genuinely drawing a blank.

The more I think about it, the fact that OP is a new player makes me 10,000 times more suspicious that this was a premeditated freeroll.

It would be bad enough to foist debt on a player who knows the host well. Even then, it's a serious misstep. Anyone who has hosted more than once knows this.

Doing it to a new guy—i.e., a person who doesn't know you or the debtor—is so egregious as to be unbelievable as an honest mistake. It smells like a setup.

It's strange to think about - I mean - all the moving parts and the individuals that would have to more or less work together or at the very least be in on it. What exactly is the scam? I've never really heard of anything like this.

Like - is the whole table or at least several people in on it? Who benefits and how? If OP shows up as the new guy, donks off a couple buyins in cash because a credit player (BL) is playing recklessly and sunrunning, are they divvying up the excess cash after he inevitably leaves the game?

So what's the flip side in this scenario? OP plays and runs well and takes advantage of BL as he should - only to find out he was playing to win money that doesn't actually exist? But the host ensures that there's still enough cash on hand at the end of the night to give OP his initial stake back and a little profit so he doesn't leave feeling completely ripped off?

If it becomes clear that it was an intentional setup, my list of suggested solutions opens up quite a bit, depending in part on how much information the host has about you. But it's nothing I'd want to post on a public-facing forum.

Out of morbid curiosity, I'm quite interested in your collection methods Send a PM please LOL

But cash opens up other problems. I have had friends get robbed at gun point in a game with all cash. One of the players had it happen to him twice! He rarely plays outside of casinos now.

Mr. Rhodeman, I genuinely sympathize with your predicament.

The stakes of the game as described are probably near or at the threshold where going cashless makes sense for security reasons. My perspective is one of discretion - I've ran games where between the cash in the box and in people's wallets there is easily $10-12k in the room if not more - but we're very selective on who we even discuss the game with let along invite to participate. Only trusted members who've demonstrated an understanding that discretion is paramount are allowed to recruit - and players have been reprimanded for running their mouths (yes seriously). Plus, a notable percentage of the people in the game are armed - although that's probably a discussion for the 'Guns' section of PCF

But again, crypto solves some of these challenges for those willing to try.

What is this sorcery of which you speak?

 

[Rhodeman77]

Can someone please explain how whether the game is raked or not is relevant to the story? I've seen it referenced several times and I'm genuinely drawing a blank.

It's strange to think about - I mean - all the moving parts and the individuals that would have to more or less work together or at the very least be in on it. What exactly is the scam? I've never really heard of anything like this.

Like - is the whole table or at least several people in on it? Who benefits and how? If OP shows up as the new guy, donks off a couple buyins in cash because a credit player (BL) is playing recklessly and sunrunning, are they divvying up the excess cash after he inevitably leaves the game?

So what's the flip side in this scenario? OP plays and runs well and takes advantage of BL as he should - only to find out he was playing to win money that doesn't actually exist? But the host ensures that there's still enough cash on hand at the end of the night to give OP his initial stake back and a little profit so he doesn't leave feeling completely ripped off?

Out of morbid curiosity, I'm quite interested in your collection methods Send a PM please LOL


Mr. Rhodeman, I genuinely sympathize with your predicament.

The stakes of the game as described are probably near or at the threshold where going cashless makes sense for security reasons. My perspective is one of discretion - I've ran games where between the cash in the box and in people's wallets there is easily $10-12k in the room if not more - but we're very selective on who we even discuss the game with let along invite to participate. Only trusted members who've demonstrated an understanding that discretion is paramount are allowed to recruit - and players have been reprimanded for running their mouths (yes seriously). Plus, a notable percentage of the people in the game are armed - although that's probably a discussion for the 'Guns' section of PCF


What is this sorcery of which you speak?

A raked game usually has the understanding that the game runner is using the rake to be able to loan money to players to keep the whales/action players in the game and helps further feed the rake. The rake in an underground game like this is usually pretty substantial, not a couple of dollars to cover food/drinks.