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Host can't pay out everyone, what to do? (6 Viewers)

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Sal Bandini said:
So it's community-owned equipment, then?
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Lunettesman said:
Must say I had the same reflection. I mean where to draw the line? Food/drinks I can understand as long as there are no profit. But for the rest I can't... Rake for better chairs... Rake for better table... Rake for better chips... Rake for a bigger room... Rake for a bigger house
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I had 30 people in my space last night for a 3-table tournament and a single-table cash game.

Between expenses that include the dinner I often provide, snacks in the form of candies, chips, & various nuts, soft drinks, bottled water, a well-stocked selection of decent spirits, a beer full of refrigerator, consumables in the form of paper plates, plasticware, etc... the list goes on... rent on the space, wear and tear on the equipment - not to mention the time commitment I make to stay until 1 am on a weeknight running a tournament that I don't even participate in, all Moxie Poker Constituents benefit even if their rates of consumption vary. And when I invest in equipment upgrades like cards, chairs, etc. - it's in the interest of improving the experience of my guests.

But just so you don't get your panties too much in a bunch over this, you might like knowing that I collected around $300 last night in house fees... which cleanly works out to $10/person. There may end up being a small surplus of funds - I don't know since I don't track it very closely. But if you think this is unreasonable, I understand - so feel free to fire off any other stupid fucking questions you may have about how I run my game.

upNdown said:
Hey, people do what they do and that’s between them and their players. Personally I don’t rake. But the more I think about it, the more I really should be raking $10 or $20 a night for cards. Paper cards are way too easy to mark, so they’re simply not an option. So plastic cards are an expensive requirement, and they don’t seem to last too long in my game.
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I only started collecting house fees relatively recently. In the beginning, we often only had 10 people or less playing, so it really didn't cost much. I could stock the snacks and the fridge at the beginning of the season and it would get us through all the league events. I don't mind incurring small expenses, but it got to be too much to absorb.
 
Moxie Mike said:
I had 30 people in my space last night for a 3-table tournament and a single-table cash game.

Between expenses that include the dinner I often provide, snacks in the form of candies, chips, & various nuts, soft drinks, bottled water, a well-stocked selection of decent spirits, a beer full of refrigerator, consumables in the form of paper plates, plasticware, etc... the list goes on... rent on the space, wear and tear on the equipment - not to mention the time commitment I make to stay until 1 am on a weeknight running a tournament that I don't even participate in, all Moxie Poker Constituents benefit even if their rates of consumption vary. And when I invest in equipment upgrades like cards, chairs, etc. - it's in the interest of improving the experience of my guests.

But just so you don't get your panties too much in a bunch over this, you might like knowing that I collected around $300 last night in house fees... which cleanly works out to $10/person. There may end up being a small surplus of funds - I don't know since I don't track it very closely. But if you think this is unreasonable, I understand - so feel free to fire off any other stupid fucking questions you may have about how I run my game.


I only started collecting house fees relatively recently. In the beginning, we often only had 10 people or less playing, so it really didn't cost much. I could stock the snacks and the fridge at the beginning of the season and it would get us through all the league events. I don't mind incurring small expenses, but it got to be too much to absorb.
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Speaking of getting panties in a bunch

You originally replied to another post implying that not all rake is for profit, and that yours is redistributed to the players. It's obviously not, since you're listing expenses and recouping them. That's a business and for profit.

I'm not sure why you brought up the food/drinks. That was never the point of contention. It's collecting money for poker supplies that was the point.

You can run your game anyway you want and there's nothing wrong with charging people for expenses (if that's your thing). Just don't pretend it's altruistic. It's for profit.

"And when I invest in equipment upgrades like cards, chairs, etc. - it's in the interest of improving the experience of my guests."

I'm fine with playing with dice chips and have sat on folding chairs countless times. Upgrades are usually not needed. You upgrade because you want to. Do the players get to pick out the chips? I'm sure some would like CPC and some might like ceramics.
 
Sal Bandini said:
Speaking of getting panties in a bunch

You originally replied to another post implying that not all rake is for profit, and that yours is redistributed to the players. It's obviously not, since you're listing expenses and recouping them. That's a business and for profit.

I'm not sure why you brought up the food/drinks. That was never the point of contention. It's collecting money for poker supplies that was the point.

You can run your game anyway you want and there's nothing wrong with charging people for expenses (if that's your thing). Just don't pretend it's altruistic. It's for profit.

"And when I invest in equipment upgrades like cards, chairs, etc. - it's in the interest of improving the experience of my guests."

I'm fine with playing with dice chips and have sat on folding chairs countless times. Upgrades are usually not needed. You upgrade because you want to. Do the players get to pick out the chips? I'm sure some would like CPC and some might like ceramics.
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How many poker games have you hosted?
 
doublebooyah85 said:
lol you did get a bit defensive. Some people view rake, even for capital improvements as completely unnecessary but that’s just cheap motherfuckers that don’t host. But they are correct lol
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To play devil's advocate, sure, the host is using collected player funds to pay for what will ultimately be his own property. He's not going to leave it to the players when he stops hosting.

But in most cases, we're talking about a host who has personally funded the equipment upfront at a much larger expense, and anything collected from the players is only helping to defray the cost of replacements (especially cards) or new expenses in response to player requests.

In my experience, hosting is a net-negative endeavor, and there's nothing wrong with balancing that a little, especially if you're using premium stuff.
 
Thought more about this and a couple additional factors that might influence best approach

-what % of BL’s buy in did he pay (buying in for 20 but only able to cover 12 is different and shows different intent than walking on the full 20)

-how inebriated was BL during the last rebuys

-how did BL eventually get cut off

- what % of your winnings were you paid (you win 10 but only paid 6…yes you’re owed 10, but it’s really easy to rationalize that you were never winning 10 if BL was cutoff, and no one has much sympathy for someone beating a game for 6. Different than winning 10 but only paid 1-2)

-the host is playing, ya? How much did he cash himself out?
 
doublebooyah85 said:
lol you did get a bit defensive. Some people view rake, even for capital improvements as completely unnecessary but that’s just cheap motherfuckers that don’t host. But they are correct lol
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Maybe you're right - I may have overreacted. But the assertion pisses me off when I go to great lengths to ensure that my guests are comfortable, well fed and have a great experience when they're in my space. We play in my corporate office after hours when we have the building to ourselves, and my player group is comprised of colleagues, fellow business owners, a couple of local physicians, etc. I've actually met several clients by hosting card games - along with my accountant and my biz attorney. But it's not just about impressing important people - how I do anything is how I do everything.

So all my efforts are solely in the interest of providing the best experience possible, not lining my own pockets. And yes - they notice, they care and they appreciate it. In fact, one year a few of them chipped in for xmas & gave me a gift-wrapped package - inside was this:

20221230_152647.jpg
*
*It was actually $550 wrapped in a $5k band - but still much appreciated and totally unexpected.

All in all if I tallied it up I'm sure I'm cash-flow negative having hosted hundreds of events over the years, even if you considered the chips I've acquired which objectively hold their value. But that isn't the point. It's about the people. Hell, we even got this beast into play for the first time last night and it was a hit!

moxie.jpg
 
Frogzilla said:
If buying in with some of your owed funds and cashing out early next game is an option, go for it.
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Problem with the host advancing the shortfall as chips is that he will still be short that amount at the end of the night.

So either the OP wins more money, and the host still doesn’t have the funds to pay him; or he loses, and the uncollected debt gets transferred to other players.
 
Re.: Game expenses:

1) I would never take anything out for game equipment, venue infrastructure, utilities, etc.

2) After more than a decade of hosting, I do now have the dealer remove $20 from the first few pots of $400+ up, capped at an amount that is less than the actual food/drink costs.

Why?

Because my regs have over time come to want and expect more and more amenities, well beyond what I’m prepared to unilaterally cover across 20+ games annually.

We didn’t used to have more than light snacks, but now do a meal (usually three big pizzas and salad from a high-end place).

Plus there’s a couple players who like wine, so I buy a decent bottle every game. Others whiskey. Others coffee and tea. Others flavored seltzer. I’m happy to oblige so that they don’t have to BYO.

There’s also typically candies, chips, popcorn, snacks, sodas, fruit, nuts. Paper plates, bowls, utensils, cups, napkins… My prep list keeps growing. I’ve started stocking up on the nonperishables so these don’t have to be replenished so often.

It adds up. And I spend a lot of unreimbursed time shopping now.

Still the dealer collects substantially less than the total—since I enjoy all these things too, and expect to take a small loss even so.

On top of that, when he hands me the chips once the cap is met, I usually add these to my stack unless I’m way up. So that money may just get back in the game.

Anyone who wants to opt out can. I would not disinvite them. But they prefer it this way.

Before taking this modest step, I polled my regs. Of 16 players, 15 preferred this arrangement to either a leaner spread, or each player ponying up individually what they consider fair for their grub. (The one dissenter barely ever played anyway.)

In the eyes of the law, this is no doubt still a rake even though I am taking a loss. For that matter so are the tips voluntarily given to my dealer.

However, I do think it is worth distinguishing modest food/drink defrayment from your typical private game rakes which occur every single pot, throughout the night, and are 95% profit. There ought to be a term for it besides “food/drink fee” or whatever.
 
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Taghkanic said:
Re.: Game expenses:

I would never take anything out for game equipment, venue infrastructure, utilities, etc.
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I respect your position - I guess I just have a different perspective.

For example, I recently built a new table to replace a smaller, old one that was too small and inadequate for a 10-person game.

I did all the work myself, but it was still around $800 in materials. As a result, the new table is more comfortable and accommodates more players.

I also built five additional drink tables to go with the seven I already have on hand at a cost of $50 apiece. As a result, there's no long a mad scramble at the beginning of the night to snag one - and no one really has to share.

This summer, I'm going to pick up a Shuffletech. Total investment will be at least $1k and maybe more. This will benefit the entire group in all the obvious ways - including the dedicated dealer since no-shuffling = easier on her hands + more hands per hour leading to more tips.

We play in my corporate office after hours - and I low-key rent the place out here and there for private parties. So by hosting regularly, I'm actually costing my company revenue generating opportunities. Now I don't charge people 'rent' to play cards in my space - but it's a factor that has to be taken into account from a business perspective.

So yes - equipment become my property when purchased so it's absolutely true that I'm acquiring (depreciating) physical assets as a result. But I feel 100% justified in doing so, since 1) I wouldn't buy these items otherwise; and 2) Everything I do benefits the group as a whole.

Taghkanic said:
Because my regs have over time come to want and expect more and more amenities, well beyond what I’m prepared to unilaterally cover across 20+ games annually.

We didn’t used to have more than light snacks, but now do a meal (usually three big pizzas and salad from a high-end place).

Plus there’s a couple players who like wine, so I buy a decent bottle every game. Others whiskey. Others coffee and tea. Others flavored seltzer. I’m happy to oblige so that they don’t have to BYO.

There’s also typically candies, chips, popcorn, snacks, sodas, fruit, nuts. Paper plates, bowls, utensils, cups, napkins… My prep list keeps growing. I’ve started stocking up on the nonperishables so these don’t have to be replenished so often.

It adds up. And I spend a lot of unreimbursed time shopping now.

Still the dealer collects substantially less than the total—since I enjoy all these things too, and expect to take a small loss even so.

On top of that, when he hands me the chips once the cap is met, I usually add these to my stack unless I’m way up. So that money may just get back in the game.

Anyone who wants to opt out can. I would not disinvite them. But they prefer it this way.

Before taking this modest step, I polled my regs. Of 16 players, 15 preferred this arrangement to either a leaner spread, or each player ponying up individually what they consider fair for their grub. (The one dissenter barely ever played anyway.)

In the eyes of the law, this is no doubt still a rake even though I am taking a loss. For that matter so are the tips voluntarily given to my dealer.

However, I do think it is worth distinguishing modest food/drink defrayment from your typical private game rakes which occur every single pot, throughout the night, and are 95% profit. There ought to be a term for it besides “food/drink fee” or whatever.
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100% all of this. Well said. The only thing I would add is that by hosting - and you're commendably doing so to the best of your ability - you're literally providing a service that no one else stepped up to do - for the benefit of many people no less. Asking your players to participate in offsetting the costs to any degree is perfectly reasonable and if they object - they obviously don't appreciate the opportunity you're providing.

Curious to get @detroitdad's experience and perspective - since he provides a unique playing experience and goes to great lengths in his efforts.
 
Jimulacrum said:
To play devil's advocate, sure, the host is using collected player funds to pay for what will ultimately be his own property. He's not going to leave it to the players when he stops hosting.

But in most cases, we're talking about a host who has personally funded the equipment upfront at a much larger expense, and anything collected from the players is only helping to defray the cost of replacements (especially cards) or new expenses in response to player requests.

In my experience, hosting is a net-negative endeavor, and there's nothing wrong with balancing that a little, especially if you're using premium stuff.
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Yo soy El Diablo?
 
I know I personally have over 10k invested in my overall setup and have never taken a dime from my players for any of it. It’s my choice to host the way I host not theirs so I feel charging them would be wrong. I know others here have spent more than me and do not charge either. I guess it comes down to personal choice really. You do you.
 
BPTDirector said:
I know I personally have over 10k invested in my overall setup and have never taken a dime from my players for any of it. It’s my choice to host the way I host not theirs so I feel charging them would be wrong. I know others here have spent more than me and do not charge either. I guess it comes down to personal choice really. You do you.
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I am truly a boy amongst men.
 
Like everyone has said, cash in, cash out. As a host, I always add an extra 1-3 buyins to the bank in case players want to quickpay, Venmo, etc. me. It is on the host to make sure that everyone is squared off at the end of the night. The last thing a host wants is disgruntled players because they were not paid.
 
LeLe said:
:rolleyes: When people are comparing their 5/10c to 25/50c stake cash in cash out method, it work because it only 3-digits and lower 4-digits net total cash

It didn’t work that well when 5-6 digits total cash is involved which seem to be the case for OP
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Disagree. Cash IS cash, no matter the stakes. If you're going to throw in a grand to buy into a game are you really going to blindly accept a host giving markers left and right without really knowing the people in the game? You'd have no idea who could be colluding and you'd have absolutely no recourse if they were.

I don't play at anywhere near these stakes, but I can tell you if I were at a game like this and the host started handing out markers like this, I'd be cashing in and heading out, pronto.
 
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Moxie Mike said:
I respect your position - I guess I just have a different perspective.

For example, I recently built a new table to replace a smaller, old one that was too small and inadequate for a 10-person game.

I did all the work myself, but it was still around $800 in materials. As a result, the new table is more comfortable and accommodates more players.

I also built five additional drink tables to go with the seven I already have on hand at a cost of $50 apiece. As a result, there's no long a mad scramble at the beginning of the night to snag one - and no one really has to share.

This summer, I'm going to pick up a Shuffletech. Total investment will be at least $1k and maybe more. This will benefit the entire group in all the obvious ways - including the dedicated dealer since no-shuffling = easier on her hands + more hands per hour leading to more tips.

We play in my corporate office after hours - and I low-key rent the place out here and there for private parties. So by hosting regularly, I'm actually costing my company revenue generating opportunities. Now I don't charge people 'rent' to play cards in my space - but it's a factor that has to be taken into account from a business perspective.

So yes - equipment become my property when purchased so it's absolutely true that I'm acquiring (depreciating) physical assets as a result. But I feel 100% justified in doing so, since 1) I wouldn't buy these items otherwise; and 2) Everything I do benefits the group as a whole.


100% all of this. Well said. The only thing I would add is that by hosting - and you're commendably doing so to the best of your ability - you're literally providing a service that no one else stepped up to do - for the benefit of many people no less. Asking your players to participate in offsetting the costs to any degree is perfectly reasonable and if they object - they obviously don't appreciate the opportunity you're providing.

Curious to get @detroitdad's experience and perspective - since he provides a unique playing experience and goes to great lengths in his efforts.
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A Ben book warning would be nice. You have a corporate office. I am sure your job carries a lot of responsibilities and that your time is valuable. Let me help you. When someone on this forum criticizes you for doing something that works for you, learn to say Fuck-em.

If you are still unable to repress the urge to respond with a post that reads like a legal brief, shower with a scoring pad for a couple of weeks. This will thicken your skin.
 
I've hosted for 20+ years, and typically charge player fees that go towards purchases of food/drinks, poker consumables (mostly cards), and dedicated dealers. The chips, chairs, and tables are mine, and I don't expect players to pay for my stuff (or for my time).

Nobody complains, and some occasionally give extra -- which is appreciated, but certainly never expected.

How anybody else does it is their business, not mine.
 
Labrat said:
Disagree. Cash IS cash, no matter the stakes. If you're going to throw in a grand to buy into a game are you really going to blindly accept a host giving markers left and right without really knowing the people in the game? You'd have no idea who could be colluding and you'd have absolutely no recourse if they were.

I don't play at anywhere near these stakes, but I can tell you if I were at a game like this and the host started handing out markers like this, I'd be cashing in and heading out, pronto.
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Personally, I’m uncomfortable with bringing large wads of cash to a new private home game without any real security. I would say off the top of my head that my limit would be around two bullets at 5/10. So if I lose that I’ll leave early. I also don’t mess around with credit and always have a clear stop loss. Fish usually don’t.

Unfortunately, markers or credit are what keeps the fish in the game. A lot of them only bring a few bullets in cash but end up losing huge because they rack up large amounts of debt from the host. Without them there is no game or money to be made. Most raked games that don’t do credit always break when the whale goes home. So the host directly benefits by offering credit to his biggest donators. Sad reality of mid stakes poker really
 
Moxie Mike said:
Curious to get @detroitdad's experience and perspective - since he provides a unique playing experience and goes to great lengths in his efforts.
Click to expand...


To the OP's question. The host is a piece of shit for not making this right. I would never go back to his place. I would never sit at a table with him again, let alone invite him into my house.

I am not interested in raking the game. I don't have anything against it. It isn't for me. I choose to have a custom table. The chip addiction chose me, I choose to play with nice cards, equipment, ect......Nobody has asked me to upgrade my stuff. I always put out snacks. Usually chips/pretzels. I will provide bottle water, and a few bottles of bourbon.

About half of the group is really good about occasionally donating a bottle of bourbon, snacks, ect.....Some never offer anything. What I value more than whether they offer a few bucks, is their character. Are they fun to play cards with. Are they reliable. Do they play all night. Do they have fun playing poker.

Sometimes I provide dinner/pizza. Sometimes I make it a potluck style meal.

I also have several Michigan hosts to share the duties with. Of course, they are usually the most gratuitous/

I hosted Saturday night. 13 players. I provided sloppy joes. About half of them participated in dinner. Three people brought sides. Two brought snacks, one brought a bottle of Bowman Brothers Small Batch. I didn't drink any because I am on a self appointment alcohol break. I will enjoy this on SAT. Another player brought an 18 year old bottle of scotch to share with me. I can't remember the name. I declined (that was difficult lol). Several players will offer to get ice, snacks, or anything else that I may need.

Several guys are sponsoring food for my meet up in June. @mike32 is sponsoring wings. They are phenomenal. @ChaosRock is sponsoring pizza on Saturday. @Marc Hedrick is handling dinner on THUR.

Great guys!

Bill
 
I would also like to add that sometimes life is busy. I fall behind in my hosting responsibilities. If I forgot to pick something up, or if I simply didn't have time. All I have to do is ask someone to grab it in the group text, and they make it happen. I am very thankful for our south eastern Michigan players and hosts!
 
Moxie Mike said:
Asking your players to participate in offsetting the costs to any degree is perfectly reasonable and if they object - they obviously don't appreciate the opportunity you're providing.
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When it comes to game infrastructure, unfortunately most poker players don’t necessarily care about stuff like high-quality chips, cards, tables, seats, etc. Games can be pretty basic and even a bit gross, and people will still play, unless they get so substandard as to be truly unbearable.

How many times have I played on a bare kitchen table, with dogs and kids running around, everyone squished up against the cabinets, with injection mold chips? At the time it was fine, I was just looking for more games.

Or how many times have I seen 80+ people playing all-day tournaments on under- or oversized resin tables, squatting on metal folding chairs, under neon lighting, using dice chips and grocery store cards, eating Dominos pizza or low-end Chinese food, crammed into a social hall… happy as pigs in shit. Sad but true.

Now in my experience when you furnish players with better options, they will usually be unconsciously glad you did. Most will notice that you’re running a nice or cool operation… but often not realize what exactly makes it better. And certainly wouldn’t agree to spending $4K+ on chips alone.

So if asked in advance to front the cost, most are not going to want to pony up for it. Better food? Sure. Pay yo upgrade from dice chip to Paulsons? They don’t even know what that name means.

I had a player invite me to a game where they used “real clay chips,” because he heard me talking about collecting… Of course it turned out they were ABS, not even China clays let alone Paulson. Oh well.

Bottom line, if you want a better-appointed game (as I do), that is 98% of the time going to have to be at the host’s initiative *and cost*.

I also don’t ask players to fund my gear because honestly most of what I now choose to purchase either retains value, increases in value, or depreciates so slowly that the effective long-term cost to me is trivial.

My regs would be shocked what I spent in time and cash and labor on a custom spotted THC set, and never would have splurged for it. Now that I have it some—but hardly most—think they’re cool. But if I switched to Milanos they probably wouldn’t care.

As I’ve grown older (and able to afford better stuff) I’ve realized that economizing isn’t always a money-saver, because cheap options are disposable—while quality things last, and even can be good investments. It’s worth getting better stuff if you can float it, sincr the more basic options quickly become worthless yardsale junk.

By now TBH I have a small fortune into my table, chairs and chips alone. (And I never in a million years would have believed that if I had heard myself saying that 20 years ago.) But if I quit hosting tomorrow I could sell most of my game gear for as much or more than I paid. They are storing, not losing value.

There’s no upside for me to make the players front my coats. I’d feel obliged to then also profitshare on any gear sold, an accounting nightmare. And all that a demand for funding these purchase would accomplish is to drive off some of the cheaper players.
 
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Going away from OP s problem... I usually run a bring your drink game. Snacks are on me. Sometimes I crack up a bottle for everyone and sometimes other people bring their own.

I did my best to educate my crew about the chips and the gear. It was nice to see the got more and more interested in it. Some of them even showed up to help cleaning the dirty stacks. Nice moments between buddies holding a toothbrush and oiling chips. Girls have Tupperware nights, my boys have poker chips cleaning afternoon.

The tradition now, started by my players is the round up their cash out to next 10er down. It's really not much, I appreciate and I buy cards with it or a bottle to share.

Now back to OP s question. I'm worry that you will have to swallow the pill. Learn from your mistake. Never interact with the host again and hope for the best. I don't know about you, OP, but I d have called/texted the host intensely for a while and then, after a month, tell him my thought and move on.
 
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