Host can't pay out everyone, what to do? (7 Viewers)

[Highli99]

For those asking, an example of how crypto would work is below:

1. Host buys a Ledger hardware wallet ($~80)
2. Host sets up numerous wallets on the Ledger. I'd do individual player banks and a game bank.
3. Players fund their accounts by sending USDC (stable coins) directly to their player bank controlled by the host. The blockchain is transparent so they can see their balance even tho the host controls it
4. At buy in time, the host moves funds out of each players bank and into the game account
5. At cash out time, the host moves funds from the game account to the player’s bank
6. After all cashouts, the game bank should have zero balance
7. Players can leave funds in their bank or request a withdrawal back to their own wallet

The above is basically how casino games work except using crypto stable coins instead of fiat Currency.

The nice part about blockchain is that you can send whatever you want without a third party asking questions. No more pay pal accounts frozen or bank accounts closed.

You can choose which stable coin you want but I'd lean towards something Solana related due to the speed of transfers and the low (basically free) gas charges. For example moving. $10k might cost you a penny, but probably less.

 

[Moxie Mike]

A raked game usually has the understanding that the game runner is using the rake to be able to loan money to players to keep the whales/action players in the game and helps further feed the rake. The rake in an underground game like this is usually pretty substantial, not a couple of dollars to cover food/drinks.

I never knew this but it makes sense I guess. I played in a $1/2 PLO game hosted by a friend a while ago... he had a dedicated dealer and was raking up to $10/hand - which I thought was ridiculous so I never went back. I just assumed it was going in his pocket but what it sounds like you're saying is the high rake is compensation for the risk he's taking by extending credit at his discretion. Players are OK with this because it keeps the whales gambling?

I arrived with cash and bought in/cashed out accordingly... but several players either Venmo-ed the host ahead of time or seemed to be playing on credit. I didn't think much of it at the time - as long as I can cash out what business is it of mine?

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

I never knew this but it makes sense I guess. I played in a $1/2 PLO game hosted by a friend a while ago... he had a dedicated dealer and was raking up to $10/hand - which I thought was ridiculous so I never went back. I just assumed it was going in his pocket but what it sounds like you're saying is the high rake is compensation for the risk he's taking by extending credit at his discretion. Players are OK with this because it keeps the whales gambling?

I arrived with cash and bought in/cashed out accordingly... but several players either Venmo-ed the host ahead of time or seemed to be playing on credit. I didn't think much of it at the time - as long as I can cash out what business is it of mine?

Well the rake is going into the hosts pocket. But at least, in this instance, it would have allowed the host to pay his players.

Only reason you run a raked game is for profit. Never any altruistic reasons for it.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Well the rake is going into the hosts pocket. But at least, in this instance, it would have allowed the host to pay his players.

Only reason you run a raked game is for profit. Never any altruistic reasons for it.

In my cash game we rake a small amount for consumables and to pay for equipment upgrades - so it's pretty equitably redistributed to the players. I don't need to make money off my friends aside from what I win from them

 

[Bluegrass Poker]

In my cash game we rake a small amount for consumables and to pay for equipment upgrades - so it's pretty equitably redistributed to the players. I don't need to make money off my friends aside from what I win from them

True. I meant an underground game. I should have been more specific, not a friendly game covering food, but it still puts you into a murky legal area anytime you take a take.

 

[upNdown]

using the rake to be able to loan money to players to keep the whales/action players in the game

Wait, so you’re saying more rake really is better? Suck it Doug Polk!

In all seriousness, the rake issue is relevant to this story, but maybe not material - even if taking a rake would have allowed the host to pay the winner, the absence of the rake doesn’t absolve him of that responsibility. But in my eyes it probably moves it from a situation where the host literally stole from you to one where the host is an irresponsible idiot and maybe even a well-intentioned irresponsible idiot, but not a thief.
And that’s why I think the people threatening violence or taking collateral are out of line. This guy isn’t profiting off this game. He’s an idiot for sure, but he invited you into his house, gave you a fun game to play in, then screwed up. So yeah, pursue the money, but probably don’t jack up the guy’s life.

 

[ekricket]

Wait, so you’re saying more rake really is better? Suck it Doug Polk!

In all seriousness, the rake issue is relevant to this story, but maybe not material - even if taking a rake would have allowed the host to pay the winner, the absence of the rake doesn’t absolve him of that responsibility. But in my eyes it probably moves it from a situation where the host literally stole from you to one where the host is an irresponsible idiot and maybe even a well-intentioned irresponsible idiot, but not a thief.
And that’s why I think the people threatening violence or taking collateral are out of line. This guy isn’t profiting off this game. He’s an idiot for sure, but he invited you into his house, gave you a fun game to play in, then screwed up. So yeah, pursue the money, but probably don’t jack up the guy’s life.

You are so 1960’s. It’s kinda socially acceptable now to smash and trash.

 

[Sal Bandini]

In my cash game we rake a small amount for consumables and to pay for equipment upgrades - so it's pretty equitably redistributed to the players.

So it's community-owned equipment, then?

 

[Machine]

A raked game usually has the understanding that the game runner is using the rake to be able to loan money to players to keep the whales/action players in the game and helps further feed the rake. The rake in an underground game like this is usually pretty substantial, not a couple of dollars to cover food/drinks.

That is a very gracious way to look at the rake and its not always even a little bit true.

The rake is to fund the Host full stop.

If he uses it to buy food, equipment, fee for the risk ...

I've been at several games with rakes where they don't have but water, and don't run a book. In fact there use to be a place here that ran a raked game, with about 8 tables, always 3 cash games going, full rake, you had to buy your own chips and drinks.

 

[Lunettesman]

So it's community-owned equipment, then?

Must say I had the same reflection. I mean where to draw the line? Food/drinks I can understand as long as there are no profit. But for the rest I can't... Rake for better chairs... Rake for better table... Rake for better chips... Rake for a bigger room... Rake for a bigger house

 

[upNdown]

Must say I had the same reflection. I mean where to draw the line? Food/drinks I can understand as long as there are no profit. But for the rest I can't... Rake for better chairs... Rake for better table... Rake for better chips... Rake for a bigger room... Rake for a bigger house

Hey, people do what they do and that’s between them and their players. Personally I don’t rake. But the more I think about it, the more I really should be raking $10 or $20 a night for cards. Paper cards are way too easy to mark, so they’re simply not an option. So plastic cards are an expensive requirement, and they don’t seem to last too long in my game.

 

[ekricket]

Must say I had the same reflection. I mean where to draw the line? Food/drinks I can understand as long as there are no profit. But for the rest I can't... Rake for better chairs... Rake for better table... Rake for better chips... Rake for a bigger room... Rake for a bigger house

In Hyperbolivia nothing can ever get done because it might lead to disastrous extreme consequences.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

extreme

 

[Frogzilla]

But cash opens up other problems. I have had friends get robbed at gun point in a game with all cash. One of the players had it happen to him twice! He rarely plays outside of casinos now.

A lot of the advice in this thread is obviously from wrong stakes. Some things don’t translate. Venmo has limits. There’s a reason crypto got popular in the poker community…as expensive and risky as it is, the alternatives can be worse.

Good luck getting your money. I don’t think host is much of an option if it’s unraked. Has BL offered any ideas of timing…that’s what I would push for. Have him and the host articulate a plan. You don’t have a ton of leverage so keep that in mind. If buying in with some of your owed funds and cashing out early next game is an option, go for it.

 

[BPTDirector]

In some circles BL might stand for Broken Legs at the stakes you are talking about. I wouldn’t let the host off the hook totally, seems like he allowed this to happen.

 

[tooth_doc]

Shitty deal! The host should go good for this. It's HIS game. He took the BL's credit... not you. He is only as good as his word.

 

[SixSpeedFury]

A lot of the advice in this thread is obviously from wrong stakes. Some things don’t translate. Venmo has limits. There’s a reason crypto got popular in the poker community…as expensive and risky as it is, the alternatives can be worse.

Good luck getting your money. I don’t think host is much of an option if it’s unraked. Has BL offered any ideas of timing…that’s what I would push for. Have him and the host articulate a plan. You don’t have a ton of leverage so keep that in mind. If buying in with some of your owed funds and cashing out early next game is an option, go for it.

Would love to hear @Windwalker and the other high rollers take on this situation, since they host and play with $$,$$$-$$$,$$$ on the table.

 

[tooth_doc]

"When can I get the money you owe me HOST? Let me know when it's safe." HAHAHAHA

 

[MeridianFC]

7 Pages!

I think the reason this thread is so many pages long is people assumed the OP attended a poker game. He did not. He attended a robbery that happened to have playing cards.

 

[TomC727]

To the OP...

Any updates?

I wonder if you should have been much more aggressive with contacting the host along with the BL more frequently and sooner? Not sure, maybe you started to contact them within days.

Just spitballing.

 

[Labrat]

7 Pages!

I think the reason this thread is so many pages long is people assumed the OP attended a poker game. He did not. He attended a robbery that happened to have playing cards.

Can't steal what was never there, can you?

 

[upNdown]

Can't steal what was never there, can you?

I was thinking about that yesterday. If host never gave that guy all those chips, hero couldn’t have won any of them. Would hero have even finished ahead if not for the influx of (unpaid) chips?
Not that it matters; host still owes. But robbery? Meh

 

[Highli99]

I was thinking about that yesterday. If host never gave that guy all those chips, hero couldn’t have won any of them. Would hero have even finished ahead if not for the influx of (unpaid) chips?
Not that it matters; host still owes. But robbery? Meh

Would you feel the same way if the host had an outstanding debt with BL? Its definitely theft.

 

[Labrat]

Fraud, more than anything.

What it is really is a breach of contract. I don't see how it could be a criminal act, unless it is fraud like I said.

 

[upNdown]

Would you feel the same way if the host had an outstanding debt with BL? Its definitely theft.

It’s probably stupid to get into a semantics debate, but I think there’s a real different between “robbery / theft” and “the host owes hero the money.”
I guess it comes down to intent. I’m not defending host - I think he’s a shit host. But it seems most likely that he didn’t intend for this to happen. So I wouldn’t say it’s theft.

 

[Highli99]

It’s probably stupid to get into a semantics debate, but I think there’s a real different between “robbery / theft” and “the host owes hero the money.”
I guess it comes down to intent. I’m not defending host - I think he’s a shit host. But it seems most likely that he didn’t intend for this to happen. So I wouldn’t say it’s theft.

Knowingly possessing the assets of another and not returning them is how I would define theft. It might not been a fraud to begin with, that part of hosts intent is unknown.

If a bank teller “borrows” money from their till with intent to pay it back, but does so without permission. That is still theft. Even if they pay it back later.

Whether or not cash changed hands doesn't matter. Value was exchanged. If I promise a politician a bribe, that is the same as handing cash.

 

[Labrat]

IMO, this falls civil contract law and, unfortunately, a private gambling debt is usually not sanctioned by states, therefore it's an illegal contract and unenforceable.

If I promise a politician a bribe, that is the same as handing cash.

That's conspiracy.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Since the host isn't taking a rake, I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. If this guy is a reg, and has never pulled this before, I can see how the host could get caught unaware.

However, even if this is what happened, I'd be making every effort to get the money back from BL, and not be so cavalier about the situation.

 

[Jimulacrum]

It’s probably stupid to get into a semantics debate, but I think there’s a real different between “robbery / theft” and “the host owes hero the money.”
I guess it comes down to intent. I’m not defending host - I think he’s a shit host. But it seems most likely that he didn’t intend for this to happen. So I wouldn’t say it’s theft.

The line between an honest fuckup and deliberate theft here is whether host issued the debt with the intent of leaving someone holding the bag if BL lost.

I doubt we'll ever really know. Without more information, it's plausible it was either, but even the honest fuckup, as it has played out so far. is unethical. It's just not quite theft.

 

[MeridianFC]

This is why I love PCF! It's like Socratic Dialogue. But nerdier.