Is this dementia? (1 Viewer)

Trihonda

Trihonda

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Hosted a game last night (tournament), and an older guy made some weird comments that had us scratching our heads. This guy is very nice, plays a lot of poker locally, and is even a city councilman in his home city... he's generally well respected. Probably around 70 years old, but doesn't present as elderly.

I'm dealing the hand, and this older gent (OG) is involved in a three-way all in. $10 Bounties are in play.

OG had 11k, has AA
V1 has 12k, has 99
V2 has 15k, has AK

Board runs out Q59 2 5

V1 clearly wins with the boat, I count out his stack, he has OG covered. V2 is still in the tourney with 3k. Before I ship stacks, OG announces that he accepts that V1 gets the main pot, but wonders why he isn't getting V2's stack, since he clearly beat him with his AA. I think (and the table agreed) that I did a decent job of clearly and calmly explaining that he was only eligible to win as much as he had in his stack, and that the 3k in V2's stack wasn't in play, because he covered all the players. OG repeated several times that in the games he normally plays in, that's not the rules... but that he accepts MY ruling... I've played in many local games with OG and know that he doesn't play anywhere that allows a short stack to win a larger stacks chips even if he has the better hand. He was obviously confused. But he was very adamant that my ruling was abnormal. Weird...

So now I'm torn here. OG is a nice guy, and he can be a decent player, albeit I think he's not as winning a player as many others in my game. But he good for the game, and not just financially. He's reliable, shows up when he says he will, is always bringing a snack to share, etc.. but IF there is some actual dementia involved, and he's not making rational decisions, I hate to continue to invite him... when money is involved. I would never want to take advantage of someone like that.. Im not going to rush to any hasty decisions, but I'll definitely keep an eye on him moving forward.

Has anyone else run into aging players with Cognitive issues?
 
All I can suggest is that before the cards run out, count the stacks, arrange the main and side pots, and announce who is eligible to win which pot.

That's alot of wasted work if the big stack scoops, but maybe less work than dealing with the explanation afterward.

As for your question, could be early stages. Definitely keep an eye on him. FWIW, I constantly put my foot in my mouth with pot-size bets... And then the light bulb goes off. Maybe this is the same situation...he just needed to see it to rationalize it... Since he understood the side pot concept, the gears are still turning. Could've just been a brain fart. I understand you took your time to patiently explain it to him...did you also break down the chips into main and side pots?

If you get more indicators, might want to discuss them with him and possibly stop inviting him then...

I'd give him a call today or over the weekend and make sure he understands why the pot was shipped the way it was... He may have come to understand. If he still doesn't, you might get more insight into what's going on.
 
My mother in law suffered from dementia for a few years. It was more in line with seeing today as the past, not remembering family members and really not being with it. While this above situation is weird, it sounds like he was all together throughout the game, and had a brain fart. Maybe he will go back and realize his mistake. I'd give him another chance, but if gets a little wonky, might want to pull him aside and raise concerns.
 
Well, we're all technically aging, and I know at most DCS events I've been the one with cognitive issues, albeit caused by trying every day to drink Courage's keg dry.

If you were dragging him to the game, that's one thing, but you're just sending an invite and he shows up of his own volition, then I don't see what the problem is here.
 
WedgeRock said:
All I can suggest is that before the cards run out, count the stacks, arrange the main and side pots, and announce who is eligible to win which pot.

That's alot of wasted work if the big stack scoops, but maybe less work than dealing with the explanation afterward.
Click to expand...

We kept stacks separate, but counted before (when a count was asked for by V2), and again after the after the fact, very clearly. It was not difficult. And it was clear that V1 has 12k, and we pulled 12k from OG and V2's stacks (OG was covered), made a main pot to ship to V1, and OG got confused.

It was more than a slight confusion... when it was clearly explained, he continued to be adamant that he was entitled to V2's chips. He acknowledged that V1 was entitled to his main stack, since he had him covered, but somehow believed he should get V2's bounty and 3k. It was weird.
 
Honestly,
I get situations once in a while where I'm confused....one time I forgot which way the table seating went (to the left or right) after picking a seating chip...partly because the dealer chose an end seat on the oval, and not being near "the center" threw me for a loop....but anyway, shit happens.

If he starts asking if all black/red is good for a flush, then I'd worry more....and if he can get to the game on his own power, then I wouldn't really stop him unless he's a danger to the community on the roads getting there....

Good luck, my mother-in-law is in a nursing home with dementia, and it sucks.
nitzilla
 
krafticus said:
My mother in law suffered from dementia for a few years. It was more in line with seeing today as the past, not remembering family members and really not being with it. While this above situation is weird, it sounds like he was all together throughout the game, and had a brain fart. Maybe he will go back and realize his mistake. I'd give him another chance, but if gets a little wonky, might want to pull him aside and raise concerns.
Click to expand...

I have no intentions to stop inviting him. I've dealt with a lot of dementia issues in my career. It often presents at first as confusion to common sense situations. Not understanding something that should be very clear, then frustration at not understanding. These episodes start out sporadic and increase in frequency. They are also often exacerbated during times of stress, which Pocket aces AIPF three ways (then losing) might be considered one of those moments.

I don't think OG is at the point of being incapable of good poker play, but as I stated in my OP, I'll just keep an eye out, and if I (we) notice a trend of confusion, etc.. I might have a conversation with him.

Might have been something in the water too... I had another regular player (plays casinos 2x/week) act dumbfounded as we explained the "one chip rule" to a poker newbie at the table. Says he's never heard of it... actually, come to think about it, that was V2 from above... He HAD to be trolling me tho...
 
I'm always fucking up. About six games ago I bummed out because I thought I had a straight, turns out I only had a pair.

Last game, I thought my low straight was beaten by a high straight, then realised I had a flush. Everyone thought I was slow-rolling. Cue me trying to convince everyone I'm not a twat, just an idiot.

I think I've got ADD or something, because other than fuckups like that my game's ok (I'm averaging approx 40% in the money in relatively small 6-8 player games, where 2 places are paid).
 
Checked into my hotel at 9am this morning for 2 hours to shower and leave after a session.

I dunno, this happened 9 hours ago? (Aka Standard).


Worst beat of session last night. I raise 50 pre with KK, flop 873r. Bet 200, call by local aggro asian villain who I've been tilting all night since I'm his daddy and locals are loving his new found slowdown temperament. Ace turn, I jam 1100 with again, KK, he tanks for longest tank Eva, calls with TT, river T.

Dementia? No. Standard in reg play.

Hollywood Casino, PA, just hours ago. Shit happens.

IMG_20170825_030404537_TOP.jpg
 
guinness said:
Checked into my hotel at 9am this morning for 2 hours to shower and leave after a session.

I dunno, this happened 9 hours ago? (Aka Standard).


Worst beat of session last night. I raise 50 pre with KK, flop 873r. Bet 200, call by local aggro asian villain who I've been tilting all night since I'm his daddy and locals are loving his new found slowdown temperament. Ace turn, I jam 1100 with again, KK, he tanks for longest tank Eva, calls with TT, river T.

Dementia? No. Standard in reg play.

Hollywood Casino, PA, just hours ago. Shit happens.

View attachment 117506
Click to expand...

Your 280dpi camera has bad dimenshia.
 
Im going with brain fart. Were his interactions away from play weird or is this the only example of the night
Trihonda said:
three-way all in.
Click to expand...
Three way all in's can be confusing....I was once involved in a three way but before we.....Oh Wait that should be in the off topic thread
 
This morning I put oil on my lunch salad but I forgot to add vinegar before I packed it.

I guess I'm no longer invited to play in your game. :-(
 
Trihonda said:
Has anyone else run into aging players with Cognitive issues?
Click to expand...

To give a serious answer... appearing stubbornly fixed on an idea is, in fact, one sign of senile dementia. Sufferers have a lot of difficulty with change, and if they get a mistaken notion, they have a very hard time letting go of it, even in the face of obvious and clear evidence or explanations. In my experience, the combination of confusion with the inability to change their mind often comes across as crazy stubbornness, but it's just an inability to mentally change tracks.

However, absent all the other common symptoms, it would be a stretch to call it dementia. Fact is, lots of people misunderstand multi-way all-in pots, and lots of people have a hard time letting go of a misconception during a high-stress situation. That's why it's always best to pull the chips into the appropriate pots as things happen. The only time I allow otherwise is when it's only two people - every time it's more than two people, I make the pots right before running the cards.

I've also found that a lot of people have a lot of trouble following "dealer's shortcuts" I used to use in the casino - so I don't use them. By this, I mean that I used to sometimes break out a side pot by calculating how much is in the side, and then pulling all the rest into the main. People are often VERY uncomfortable with that, even when the situation means the math is easier that way. So, instead, I always calculate how much goes into the main - out loud - and, when it's convenient, prefer to pull money from each stack into the main. I do it this way solely to make it easy to follow for anyone involved; they're under enough stress, as it is.

As to your OG, I'd say you should keep an eye on him, but unless you see more changes, you shouldn't have any concern about inviting him to your game. In fact, when older people lose access to opportunities to socialize and engage in cognitive activities, the progression of Alzheimer's, dementia, and similar brain diseases tends to accelerate. Being involved and active slows the progression. If he is experiencing the very early beginnings of dementia, taking him out of your game prematurely would likely do him harm.
 
Mental Nomad said:
I've also found that a lot of people have a lot of trouble following "dealer's shortcuts" I used to use in the casino - so I don't use them. By this, I mean that I used to sometimes break out a side pot by calculating how much is in the side, and then pulling all the rest into the main. People are often VERY uncomfortable with that, even when the situation means the math is easier that way. So, instead, I always calculate how much goes into the main - out loud - and, when it's convenient, prefer to pull money from each stack into the main. I do it this way solely to make it easy to follow for anyone involved; they're under enough stress, as it is.
Click to expand...

This is really good SOP.
 
I've had this happen a few times. Each time with the same player. Sad thing is it was my father. He insisted on playing and rather than have him attend his usual watering hole we dealt him in. Each time he'd lose he would turn into a rant. He has trouble controlling his emotions. He would also seemingly get confused when someone went all in. Curiously, he would get angry and fold because he felt he couldn't call..
When I asked him why he said he didn't have enough in chips to call. We all just kinda looked at each other. When we told him he can still call and win what he has invested he seemed confused and wanted to leave.
I since have asked him to not join my games. Rather, if he wanted to play I'd organize a game for his friends at their pub. It's sad to watch. It's harder to deal with.
 
detroitdad said:
Good luck Sir.
Click to expand...
It has been a long road. My father has had quite the life. I'm not even sure how he's still alive. But let's also say that car accidents, work place incidents and a lengthy bout of alcoholism has had a negative impact on the quality of his life and livelihood.
 
My mother in law suffers from dementia, and as we know it is an awful thing. She confided in my wife early on that she had lost her ability to add and subtract. That was how she knew something was wrong. She could not balance her checkbook. I get the jokes and all, but like cancer dementia sucks.

I used to play gin with her, can't anymore.
 
Both my parents are gone now. My mom had a lot of issues, especially with her short term memory. But my dad was petty dang sharp till his body just ran out of juice. My in-laws are both still living and they are pretty much like my folks. My mother in law is mostly sharp but she gets a little off track now and then. But my father in law. Holy crap we all should be so lucky. He's 94 and sharp as a tack.

One thing to remember is that mentally stimulating activites, like card playing, are good for older people. Albeit with poker its a mixed bad because money is involved. But I'd try and keep older players around as long as they are able to. Even if they play so poorly that they always lose. Unless they are losing significant coin then what the heck. Let them play. Now if they start to get mean (my Mom did this) then its time to cut them out as its unfair to the rest of your guests.
 

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