PAHWM: home game, NLHE round (2 Viewers)

[MrCatPants]

Interesting hand in our cash game on Thursday. Thought I'd share.

Relevant players and profiles:
UTG+2 - TAG - 400 BB
CO - TAG who becomes quite the LAG later in the night (at the time of this hand, it's pretty late) and tends to get shades of maniac during these times - 600 BB
BTN (Hero) - TAG/LAG hybrid, who has been card dead for quite some time - 500 BB

folds to UTG+2 RAISES to 3 BB
folds to CO who RAISES to 10 BB
BTN (Hero) looks down at

Action on hero.

 

[RagingAZN]

If UTG +2 is a TAG, his raising range from that position is likely to have our hand crushed. I’d be inclined to play against the LAG only OTB but not closing the action, I think I’d just toss this hand.

Our hand has lots of RIO and 400 BB deep, it’s going to be hard to play.

 

[RagingAZN]

Adding on, I’d much rather call with a hand like a small/medium pair or suited connector even as when we hit, we’re likely way ahead or way behind and can play accordingly.

If we call and UTG calls and it comes K or Q high, we’re gonna be in a tough spot I think.

 

[97destroyer]

No way I fold. I call and see if there is a Re-raise at which point I would reassess.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

No way I fold. I call and see if there is a Re-raise at which point I would reassess.

Agreed. Not folding suited KQ on the button.

So go on... Trying to remember if this was the hand I think it was.

 

[grandmeme]

I hate cold calling 3! because our range tends to be pretty capped, and as many have said KQs has lots of reverse implied odds when we hit top pair or in rare scenarios even the second nut flush vs a TAG UTG+2 range. I will tend to choose KQs as a 4! bluff, as we block a lot of strong hands like KK and QQ.

By 4! KQs on the button we can:
- Narrow the strength of UTG+2 and CO ranges
- Control pot sizes in position
- Lose the minimum if we get 5! or be able to shut down if both call the 4! IP
- Lose the minimum if we flop well but get coolered (via pot control), i.e. AQ vs KQ on Q78
- Fold out better hands like AQ, AJ, AT, even some 66-TT which we are "flipping with"
- Able to stab on a variety of boards where we are dominating our opponents ranges when we cold 4! pre

My opinion though. I am a NLHE fish at medium stakes usually

 

[DrStrange]

What would be Hero's plan if he plays this hand?

CO's three bet might be a bit out of line, if Hero's read is spot on. And if CO didn't wake up with a peak quality hand like he will 5% of the hands. Is UTG+2 likely to isolate / four bet vs the LAG in position? Is hero planning to turn his hand into a preflop bluff and 4-bet into a combined range that dominates Hero's hand?

Let's say hero flats the three-bet and we get to the flop with no further action. Is Hero playing fit/fold? Is he going to bluff catch with king high? Top pair / good kicker might be a trap.

If the villains were straightforward and easy to run over - hero might be able to play almost any two cards due to position. This is the key for me. Can Hero count on the villains to make life easy on him? TAG in early position playing fit/fold. LAG in middle position to spew chips with ace high or second pair?

Hero's cards look pretty. That hand in this situation isn't so good. I am folding unless the table conditions are favorable beyond position.

Fold > raise (to isolate the lag) > call

 

[CraigT78]

Has anyone done any of the following tonight?

1. Licked the rail or table felt
2. Taken a dump in your garden
3. Streaked through the neighborhood
4. Chewed old gum from under your chairs
5. Commented they'd rather be play circus with a trimoon set

If any of the above, I'm folding

 

[MrCatPants]

Has anyone done any of the following tonight?

1. Licked the rail or table felt
2. Taken a dump in your garden
3. Streaked through the neighborhood
4. Chewed old gum from under your chairs
5. Commented they'd rather be play circus with a trimoon set

If any of the above, I'm folding

None of these have happened. Best i can do is that we broke out the aquavit pregame to celebrate midsommar.


So...not folding? Calling?

 

[CraigT78]

None of these have happened. Best i can do is that we brokenout the aquavit pregame to celebreate midsommar.


So...not folding? Calling?

Yup, That's a call.

 

[MrCatPants]

Continuing. Hero thinks for a bit and calls (its a mistake) because of a mixture of COs penchant for late night maniac aggro and "best hand Ive seen in an hour" syndrome.

Relevant players and profiles:
UTG+2 - TAG - 400 BB
CO - TAG who becomes quite the LAG later in the night (at the time of this hand, it's pretty late) and tends to get shades of maniac during these times - 600 BB
BTN (Hero) - TAG/LAG hybrid, who has been card dead for quite some time - 500 BB

folds to UTG+2 RAISES to 3 BB
folds to CO who RAISES to 10 BB
BTN (Hero) looks down at and CALLS
Hero has huge sigh of relief as UTG+2 CALLS

Pot is 32 BB

Flop slams down as

UTG+2 CHECKS
CO BETS 10 BB

Action on hero.

 

[RagingAZN]

As played, pretty safe board for us so calling is fine here and hope that UTG+2 folds.

 

[Taghkanic]

I mainly want to know how you got to be 500BB deep when card dead

 

[Taghkanic]

Anyway as played so far, on the flop I would raise to 25-30BB.

It is sometimes cheaper to make that raise now than to flat then face more hard-to-read aggression later.

It should slow the villain(s) down and allow you to get to showdown cheaper, if not win the pot right away… or get away from it if reraised, or the board runs out in some crappy way.

But a lot depends on how well you know these players. Sounds like you have a pretty good sense of how they will react to a call or raise here.

 

[MrCatPants]

I mainly want to know how you got to be 500BB deep when card dead

Its like hour 6. Been card dead for a few hours.

 

[RagingAZN]

Anyway as played so far, on the flop I would raise to 25-30BB.

It is sometimes cheaper to make that raise now than to flat then face more hard-to-read aggression later.

It should slow the villain(s) down and allow you to get to showdown cheaper, if not win the pot right away… or get away from it if reraised, or the board runs out in some crappy way.

But a lot depends on how well you know these players. Sounds like you have a pretty good sense of how they will react to a call or raise here.

are we going to be doing the same with 66 or 22 though on a board like this? QQ is not likely in our range considering PF action.

I think raising here turns our hand face up and folds out all his bluffs/worse hands. With no draws, he’s only going to continue with hands that beat us.

I do agree with your last point though, this hand (and all others for that matter) is always player dependent.

 

[Taghkanic]

are we going to be doing the same with 66 or 22 though on a board like this?

Sure. Good to handle these types of hands similarly. Also overpairs, AQ, and maybe even pairs 77-JJ. It’s possible for someone to have a better Q of course, but we can already see two of the four…

I think raising here turns our hand face up and folds out all his bluffs/worse hands.

Are such worse hands really going to keep bluffing if we just call? And how do we distinguish those continuation bets from overpairs or sets, if we just call? Calling gives us few clues as to how to proceed.

With no draws, he’s only going to continue with hands that beat us.

One player is described as a TAG and the other as a loose LAG. The former might fold to a raise but the latter could come along with any Ax/Kx hand and pairs below QQ.

I do agree with your last point though, this hand (and all others for that matter) is always player dependent.

Hence my comment again above: I’d love to get the TAG out and get the LAG (who already has 10 in) to call, while “taking control” of the momentum.

If the TAG calls then we can slow or even shut it down unless we improve on the turn — which is more likely to check through due to our reraise. If someone has an overpair or set we’ll likely hear from them on the next street and can get away.

 

[suchj0sh]

How many handed are we PF? UTG+2 could mean a lot of different things depending on that. As played i’m also calling flop and hoping UTG+2 folds.

 

[Taghkanic]

I guess another reason I like a raise in this spot is that the board is so dry, that a call is as face-up as a raise or moreso.

There are no real draws, except 45s which is very unlikely to improve.

So what just flats the 10 besides Qx? I guess AK (not likely given the preflop action) and pocket pairs not ready to give up yet, hoping the 10 is just a cbet?

Anyway if the raise takes it down it’s not such a bad result unless you really think villain has a worse Q or will spew with unimproved hands.

 

[MrCatPants]

How many handed are we PF? UTG+2 could mean a lot of different things depending on that. As played i’m also calling flop and hoping UTG+2 folds.

10

 

[springbox]

Preflop raise/fold > call. KQ is an easy hand to end up losing a big pot vs other premiums and occasionally the suited ace. 10 handed I think it's a by the books fold vs a UTG+2 open and a CO 3!, although opponents rarely play by the book.

On the flop, smooth call imo. No need to inflate the pot with top pair second kicker and a bdfd. Cutoff has AQ, AA, KK, and QQ all in range, you can only have AQ out of those. I guess you could have 6s, but unlikely to have 2s. Since you have position you'll always get the chance to bet later streets if you're checked to.

 

[WedgeRock]

Interesting hand in our cash game on Thursday. Thought I'd share.

Relevant players and profiles:
UTG+2 - TAG - 400 BB
CO - TAG who becomes quite the LAG later in the night (at the time of this hand, it's pretty late) and tends to get shades of maniac during these times - 600 BB
BTN (Hero) - TAG/LAG hybrid, who has been card dead for quite some time - 500 BB

folds to UTG+2 RAISES to 3 BB
folds to CO who RAISES to 10 BB
BTN (Hero) looks down at

Action on hero.

Based on what I know about the Cat Pants Card Room, I assume you split your hand, going for two black jacks.

That, or something like this (NSFW language):

 

[Taghkanic]

Cutoff has AQ, AA, KK, and QQ all in range, you can only have AQ out of those.

Cutoff is also described as “quite a LAG” at this stage of the night. So his range likely contains a lot more than the monsters above. A 3x preflop raise doesn’t limit his range to premiums.

A very loose aggressive player in late position, raising over a limper, can also have a ton of other hands including but hardly limited to AK, AJ, AT, KJ, QJ, and possibly worse Kx/Qx, especially if suited… Also lots of suited aces, underpairs, some suited connectors, and more.

How weighted is his range to hands you’re behind? Hard to say, I haven’t played with the guy. Is a 3x raise of a 3BB open a lot for him? I tend to doubt it based on the description and stack depths.

The combos Hero is beating likely outnumber those he’s losing to, on this flop. Maybe by a lot, if villain is at all like the latenight LAGs I play with. There are just lot more combos of unpaired hands than paired ones that beat KQ here.

As for the TAG, his preflop limp/flat call of the LAG kind of caps his range, unless he is unusually trappy with AA/KK/QQ.

Could Hero be walking into a horrible trap by raising? Sure. But if all one sees is monsters, then there are few flops if any he could continue on even when flopping top pair/second best kicker. And if one of the villains pushes back, then he can get away losing 35BB but still have 465BB left to seek a better spot.

 

[grandmeme]

Check raise top pair 2nd kicker check turn IP is an interesting line which I think I would use too in this spot. Lots of shit turn cards which you would like to avoid. I think I would use 2.5-2.8x CR to fold out hands with a lot of equity vs us and if called we can pot control turns.

Again this is why I hate cold calling 3!s because our range is capped. If UTG+2 is a thinking player and can hand read somewhat he can literally blast away and we are so miserable in this spot. But to be fair if I get someone this skilled in my friendly home game I would moan and complain..

 

[springbox]

Cutoff is also described as “quite a LAG” at this stage of the night. So his range likely contains a lot more than the monsters above. A 3x preflop raise doesn’t limit his range to premiums.

A very loose aggressive player in late position, raising over a limper, can also have a ton of other hands including but hardly limited to AK, AJ, AT, KJ, QJ, and possibly worse Kx/Qx, especially if suited… Also lots of suited aces, underpairs, some suited connectors, and more.

How weighted is his range to hands you’re behind? Hard to say, I haven’t played with the guy. Is a 3x raise of a 3BB open a lot for him? I tend to doubt it based on the description and stack depths.

The combos Hero is beating likely outnumber those he’s losing to, on this flop. Maybe by a lot, if villain is at all like the latenight LAGs I play with. There are just lot more combos of unpaired hands than paired ones that beat KQ here.

As for the TAG, his preflop limp/flat call of the LAG kind of caps his range, unless he is unusually trappy with AA/KK/QQ.

Could Hero be walking into a horrible trap by raising? Sure. But if all one sees is monsters, then there are few flops if any he could continue on even when flopping top pair/second best kicker. And if one of the villains pushes back, then he can get away losing 35BB but still have 465BB left to seek a better spot.

Our hand is good, that's why I'm not advocating folding the flop. Just don't think we need to build a big multiway pot where we can't credibly rep the nuts in our range. Prefer to check raise flop with thick value and semi bluffs, feel like top pair good kicker falls inbetween those two. If he's a real LAG, let him keep betting his underpair, you'll make more than you will if he folds out on the flop. In response to the bolded section, imo that's an argument to call not raise. He's probably folding any unpaired hands to a raise, if he does have an unpaired hand only an A will catch him up (unless he has 35 or 45 and binks the straight, but hey what are the odd of that).

In favor of the x/r, you might get it heads up and you'll likely be checked to on the turn, offering you the option of checking back and evaluating the river.

TAG could have QQ, I think normally an EP open that gets 3! is like a 50/50 call or raise with Queens. With the BTN in the hand too I'd expect it to get 4! almost every time though. Generally less worried about them, the only hand they can realistically have that's better is AQ.

 

[MrCatPants]

Continuing. Hero calls as the hand is too good to fold and is ahead of AK/AJ c-bets, tied with KQ, ahead of QJs, JJ, 1010, 99, etc. Way ahead other suited connectors that may or may not have paired the board. Surprised though when UTG+2 also calls on such a dry board.

Relevant players and profiles:
UTG+2 - TAG - 400 BB
CO - TAG who becomes quite the LAG later in the night (at the time of this hand, it's pretty late) and tends to get shades of maniac during these times - 600 BB
BTN (Hero) - TAG/LAG hybrid, who has been card dead for quite some time - 500 BB

folds to UTG+2 RAISES to 3 BB
folds to CO who RAISES to 10 BB
BTN (Hero) looks down at and CALLS
Hero has huge sigh of relief as UTG+2 CALLS

Pot is 32 BB

Flop slams down as

UTG+2 CHECKS
CO BETS 10 BB
Hero CALLS 10 BB
UTG+2 CALLS 10 BB

CO pulls zip up hoodie up so it covers his mouth.

Pot is 62 BB

Turn brings

UTG+2 CHECKS
CO BETS 50 BB

Action on hero.

 

[suchj0sh]

Y’all are so deep, UTG+2 could be doing this with like 88-JJ; call 10bb’s on the flop with crazy implied odds if he binks a set on the turn. You’ve mentioned that CO is laggy late game, which I feel is biasing me toward another call here. Do not like it tho.

 

[Taghkanic]

The more I read this the more I’m starting to think the LAG is bullying with a weak hand and the TAG is trapping…

 

[Ben8257]

What's that smell?? Is it a fart? No not at all! This has Aces or Kings written all over it!

I understand most here say raise/flat... I feel like we are behind and need to improve... our outs have dwindled and we can live to see another day. I know Ben's A NIT!! But I only got 20 Biggies in there and this sounds like top pair is bout to get kicked in the nuts.

But only raised to 10 BB and everyone is pretty deep stacked... we probably ran into Ducks!

For the record if I'm holding 89o I am 100% calling and going for glory!! Lol

Mostly I'm with @CraigT78 ... hey guys it's 3 am... you still sure you don't want to start a circus table? 2 card poker sucks!! Haha

 

[JustinInMN]

Interesting hand in our cash game on Thursday. Thought I'd share.

Relevant players and profiles:
UTG+2 - TAG - 400 BB
CO - TAG who becomes quite the LAG later in the night (at the time of this hand, it's pretty late) and tends to get shades of maniac during these times - 600 BB
BTN (Hero) - TAG/LAG hybrid, who has been card dead for quite some time - 500 BB

folds to UTG+2 RAISES to 3 BB
folds to CO who RAISES to 10 BB
BTN (Hero) looks down at

Action on hero.

Yeah, I generally like KQs, but not against two TAGs that have come in for a raise. If CO is a TAG, he probably has you crushed unless he has like exactly 88-JJ.

That is kind of hero's best case is if UTG+2 and CO are both in middle pairs, any "high card" type of hands have hero dominated except maybe AJ or AT.

I think this is a fold. Against one TAG I could see flat or 3 bet, against two TAGs I just feel like hero will end up second best too often.

Pot is 32 BB

Flop slams down as

UTG+2 CHECKS
CO BETS 10 BB

Action on hero.

Well since we played it this is our flop. Folding not an option. I think a call is fine given the board is dry, I would be more inclined to raise if the board is wet to really limit the player to act to premium hands or draws only.

CO pulls zip up hoodie up so it covers his mouth.

Pot is 62 BB

Turn brings

UTG+2 CHECKS
CO BETS 50 BB

Well, now what? Hero flatted flop and everyone is in. This is the tricky part about these strategy threads. If you don't fold pre, you are accepting you are going to take the loss when you run into QQ+ here. So to me calling is consistent with that. If you fold here, you are kind of making the point for folding this pre as there are very few runouts this clean for KQ.

So I guess my opinion would be as played we are not assuming AA or KK are out often enough based on the assumption we played this preflop. We should call as we are playing this as a bluff catcher at this point and I don't think we benefit much by trying to shut the 3rd player out on this board.