Services Sale of Classic Poker Chips Completed!! (3 Viewers)

[Mudfever]

While many people think there still aren't enough options etc. etc. please remember that in our 11 year tenure...

We reintroduced 3 old colors, added 4 new and brightened the dayglo's.
We reintroduced 1 mold and added 7 new ones.
We added around 60 new spot patterns.
We introduced stock designs, 8 options currently available, and sold over 400,000 of these.
We've had maybe 12-15 complaints or issues to fix out of over 8,000 orders.
We introduced a comprehensive range of samples and the current Chip Design Tool.
We manufactured over 2 million chips.

That's a nice way of saying look at the resume. (I am beyond excited to get my customs later this year.)

I do have a question on the stock option avenue.

From reading and memory, you guys make the "clay" and press into shapes, to then cut into spot patterns, and then arrange and place the insert and press.

For "stock options", Could you have a semi custom option? Could you say, in Q1 we are going to run Spot 3D14 in Cali colors (Pink, Blue, Yellow, Black, White). Every Q1 is Cali Color and set spot pattern and people only have to submit inlay designs. You know ahead of time that Circle square (whatever the most popular mold is) 3D14 will be run in set colors and make ahead for x amount of chips. If you don't use it all, you will the following Q1. Instead of A mold always available, it is which ever mold is set for that quarter. Thus expediting turn around. And for those wanting true customs, you have the 6 month wait. Just thinking about options kind of like a pre fixe menus at restaurants. Q1 is Cali Colors, Q2 is Vegas traditional, Q3 is Tournament, and Q4 is etc.

David, thanks for putting up with all of us.

Mud

 

[David Spragg]

That's a nice way of saying look at the resume. (I am beyond excited to get my customs later this year.)

I do have a question on the stock option avenue.

From reading and memory, you guys make the "clay" and press into shapes, to then cut into spot patterns, and then arrange and place the insert and press.

For "stock options", Could you have a semi custom option? Could you say, in Q1 we are going to run Spot 3D14 in Cali colors (Pink, Blue, Yellow, Black, White). Every Q1 is Cali Color and set spot pattern and people only have to submit inlay designs. You know ahead of time that Circle square (whatever the most popular mold is) 3D14 will be run in set colors and make ahead for x amount of chips. If you don't use it all, you will the following Q1. Instead of A mold always available, it is which ever mold is set for that quarter. Thus expediting turn around. And for those wanting true customs, you have the 6 month wait. Just thinking about options kind of like a pre fixe menus at restaurants. Q1 is Cali Colors, Q2 is Vegas traditional, Q3 is Tournament, and Q4 is etc.

David, thanks for putting up with all of us.

Mud

Methodology is not quite right, but ignoring that....

So if you set up and part make chips to run, say, on CSQ, and no-one wants them in that Q what do you do?
1. Before you even get to that spotted stage you have a shelf life. They will be dead long before the next Q1. In fact you can't make them that far ahead of Q1.
2. Different thickness clay is needed for each mold or chips will end up all too thin or too thick unless a large amount of time (and cost) is put in by the press operator.

 

[FS21]

Methodology is not quite right, but ignoring that....

So if you set up and part make chips to run, say, on CSQ, and no-one wants them in that Q what do you do?
1. Before you even get to that spotted stage you have a shelf life. They will be dead long before the next Q1. In fact you can't make them that far ahead of Q1.
2. Different thickness clay is needed for each mold or chips will end up all too thin or too thick unless a large amount of time (and cost) is put in by the press operator.

It would be interesting to see some data points, like which mold is the most ordered, the most popular spot patterns, and outside of the standard top 6-7 colors what others are the most popular.

Additional data that could be useful, like what time of the year most orders are requested and slow times during the year (not including downtime for mechanical issues).

 

[Felt_Lizard]

We manufactured over 2 million chips.

Sooo....you've been holding out on ~me~, and now you're trying to slip out the door...

 

[Eriks]

I would probably discontinue a handful of the less popular molds to cut down on lead time, and if possible, make CSQ the always-in-production mold.

It seems universally liked and the go-to one whenever people have a theme that doesn’t call for any mold in particular. Setting aside that I personally don’t like the A-mold, I don’t really understand why it should hold that honor. I wouldn’t think it makes sense to use it unless one has an A-something theme to go with it.

Obviously, production/business wise, that’s all uninformed opinions from a customer’s perspective.

 

[David Spragg]

I would probably discontinue a handful of the less popular molds to cut down on lead time, and if possible, make CSQ the always-in-production mold.

It seems universally liked and the go-to one whenever people have a theme that doesn’t call for any mold in particular. Setting aside that I personally don’t like the A-mold, I don’t really understand why it should hold that honor. I wouldn’t think it makes sense to use it unless one has an A-something theme to go with it.

Obviously, production/business wise, that’s all uninformed opinions from a customer’s perspective.

Numerous reasons we went the Amold route, which I'm sure Mike will now review 10+ years on anyway.
Much newer and less wear than the CSQ. Construction slightly different so produces chips the fastest (that's the reason it's the cheapest mold - not because it's installed all the time). If you remove stock sets from the equation then it's the most ordered mold. (I can't say if that is because it's the cheapest or the quickest turnaround).
Maybe surprisingly, the number of customers who continue to re-order/add on chips to sets they first had made 20 years ago by ASM is quite a few so we were always reluctant to reduce options for that reason.

 

[Timmah]

How long was the Roman mold in service, and approx how many chips were made with the mold?

 

[David Spragg]

How long was the Roman mold in service, and approx how many chips were made with the mold?

It was in service for approx 50 years. It would be a wild guess but I wouldn't be surprised if 5 million chips were made. I have old Burt Co. notes showing that blanks supplied to distributors of these old molds were as much as 10,000 a month. I have some old pics of the factory and they had maybe 40 presses running back then so everything was permanently installed. Molds were not as well constructed back then either, less adjustability to spread wear, etc.
Compare that to maybe 2 million made on the Amold which is far more durable, and perhaps only a million at most on molds like BDiamond or Jockey which while old, were not ordered that much.
Back in the Burt Co. days most molds were owned by distributors who were the only people who could place the orders on their molds. There were no direct sales to customers. The vast majority of production was blanks (plain and spotted) and the distributors (or a 3rd party) did the hot stamping. Burt Co. never hot stamped chips other than samples (of which not many exist).

 

[Mudfever]

Methodology is not quite right, but ignoring that....

So if you set up and part make chips to run, say, on CSQ, and no-one wants them in that Q what do you do?
1. Before you even get to that spotted stage you have a shelf life. They will be dead long before the next Q1. In fact you can't make them that far ahead of Q1.
2. Different thickness clay is needed for each mold or chips will end up all too thin or too thick unless a large amount of time (and cost) is put in by the press operator.

David,

As always, thanks for taking the time to explain.

Mud

 

[Eriks]

Numerous reasons we went the Amold route, which I'm sure Mike will now review 10+ years on anyway.
Much newer and less wear than the CSQ. Construction slightly different so produces chips the fastest (that's the reason it's the cheapest mold - not because it's installed all the time). If you remove stock sets from the equation then it's the most ordered mold. (I can't say if that is because it's the cheapest or the quickest turnaround).
Maybe surprisingly, the number of customers who continue to re-order/add on chips to sets they first had made 20 years ago by ASM is quite a few so we were always reluctant to reduce options for that reason.

Thank you, David! Appreciate getting your insights.

 

[Felt_Lizard]

Maybe surprisingly, the number of customers who continue to re-order/add on chips to sets they first had made 20 years ago by ASM is quite a few so we were always reluctant to reduce options for that reason.

Hallelujah, AMEN!
Recognize, testify, and KNEEL DOWN ALONGSIDE.

 

[Taghkanic]

We reintroduced 1 mold and added 7 new ones.

Thanks. One question I do still have per above... Were the molds reintroduced/added acquired from some other manufacturer? Or were they sitting unused in the inventory of the business when you bought it? (If they were fabricated, that sounds like it would have had to be a ferocious expense.)

 

[David Spragg]

Thanks. One question I do still have per above... Were the molds reintroduced/added acquired from some other manufacturer? Or were they sitting unused in the inventory of the business when you bought it? (If they were fabricated, that sounds like it would have had to be a ferocious expense.)

Two were acquired from another manufacturer. Three were purchased from their owner who had previously had them returned to him by ASM back in 1998.
The other 3 were sitting in the inventory but 2 of them belonged to others and the rights were purchased by us.
So none of them were newly fabricated (to my knowledge the last time a mold was fabricated was around 1990 - 44mm Amold & FDL).
We did spend a fair amount on the acquisitions though - maybe $70k (considering we were the only possible customer).

 

[WedgeRock]

To anyone asking about how a new or reintroduced mold can cost $75,000, remember (from the (in)famous mold picture from the plant) that there are 25 pairs of cups (or 50 cups total) placed in to the press at a time. So maybe it's only $1500 per cup, but that means 50 cups is $75,000.

 

[Taghkanic]

Two were acquired from another manufacturer. Three were purchased from their owner who had previously had them returned to him by ASM back in 1998.
The other 3 were sitting in the inventory but 2 of them belonged to others and the rights were purchased by us.
So none of them were newly fabricated (to my knowledge the last time a mold was fabricated was around 1990 - 44mm Amold & FDL).
We did spend a fair amount on the acquisitions though - maybe $70k (considering we were the only possible customer).

One wonders if there are any dusty unused molds still kicking around somewhere.

 

[Benjaminotaur]

This is Mike, obviously. Talk about full circle!
View attachment 1455196

Can confirm he is a repeat customer

 

[Budha]

Understood. At the same time my sense (correct someone if I’m wrong) is that these dies last a very long time.

Aren’t some of the dies used at CPC hand-me-downs from predecessors?

So if it’s $75K for something which will still work when the business is passed on to the *next* owners, and maybe the owners after that, you’re looking at more like $5,000 per year or even less.

And an expense which can be recouped when the owner(s) sell, if they have grown the business. Not to mention depreciation per above.

I don’t believe the person I referred to consider buying CPC ever took the tour, and so I never heard any particulars. But I assumed the purchased would be many, many multiples of $75K.

My own experience is more with buying and selling houses, which I’ve done three times. I’ve never bought a house that didn’t need $75K in improvements at *least*.

With two houses I bought, lived in, renovated and eventually sold, both in great condition the buyers put as much into renovation as they paid for the house. And both could still turn a profit if they sold now.

I also don’t know if the buyer is looking to get private equity-level returns, or if this is a labor of love. Either way, I hope the new owner(s) maintain CPC’s existing high standards while also not feeling hidebound to do everything the same way as prior stewards. I’d think there is a lot of room for both continuity and change.

Lastly, per @Gunnar ’s observation, I don’t know that new products would necessarily cut into existing orders, as opposed to generating new revenue. In my own case, I am unlikely to commission a full new set on the old model. But I very well might be a more regular shopper if there were some quick and easy off-the-shelf options which I could customize myself after purchase. (I have at times bought small batches of blanks, but these then need milling. That would be a lot better than buying Key Wests for murder.)

With a small business, it’s often much more about the cash flow than the amortized expense over years. The P&L may amortize the expense over 3 to 5 years, but the supplier wants payment (in full) in cash on delivery.

With the full maturity of 3D design and ability to 3D print casting molds, etc. Could one source a lower cost alternative with the ability to produce dies more efficiently is probably the more relevant question.

 

[Tight_Lay_DOWN]

This discussion about funding the Roman mold feels like a classic episode of Shark Tank, with Mark Cuban and Mr. Wonderful debating strategy.

1. Get an Exact Quote:

First, let’s obtain a detailed quote to know the exact cost of producing the Roman mold.

2. Community Fundraising:

Raise the necessary funds from the community, here. To simplify things, set a minimum investment limit—perhaps $5,000, $10,000, or higher. This will reduce the number of investors and make management more streamlined.

3. Profit Sharing Model:

• Once CPC starts selling chips using the Roman mold, all profits from those sales should go directly to the original investors until they recoup their initial investment.

• CPC will still be paid its production expenses, ensuring they don’t lose money on the process.

4. Long-Term Profit Sharing:

• After the full cost of the mold is repaid, CPC can begin keeping profits from the Roman mold sales.

• Original investors will continue to earn 10% of the profits as a royalty moving forward.

5. Investor Incentives:

To encourage larger contributions, consider offering a special bonus:

• Investors who contribute a significant amount (e.g., $15K, $20K, $25K) could gain the right to use the Roman mold at cost in perpetuity.

• Include a clause to prevent system abuse. For example, these investors wouldn’t be able to sell, lease, or loan out the chips for at least five years (or another specified timeframe) from the original delivery date.

This structure incentivizes community involvement while protecting CPC’s financial position and long-term interests.

This is just an idea - as I say - Your Mileage may Vary.

 

[David Spragg]

This discussion about funding the Roman mold feels like a classic episode of Shark Tank, with Mark Cuban and Mr. Wonderful debating strategy.

1. Get an Exact Quote:

First, let’s obtain a detailed quote to know the exact cost of producing the Roman mold.

2. Community Fundraising:

Raise the necessary funds from the community, here. To simplify things, set a minimum investment limit—perhaps $5,000, $10,000, or higher. This will reduce the number of investors and make management more streamlined.

3. Profit Sharing Model:

• Once CPC starts selling chips using the Roman mold, all profits from those sales should go directly to the original investors until they recoup their initial investment.

• CPC will still be paid its production expenses, ensuring they don’t lose money on the process.

4. Long-Term Profit Sharing:

• After the full cost of the mold is repaid, CPC can begin keeping profits from the Roman mold sales.

• Original investors will continue to earn 10% of the profits as a royalty moving forward.

5. Investor Incentives:

To encourage larger contributions, consider offering a special bonus:

• Investors who contribute a significant amount (e.g., $15K, $20K, $25K) could gain the right to use the Roman mold at cost in perpetuity.

• Include a clause to prevent system abuse. For example, these investors wouldn’t be able to sell, lease, or loan out the chips for at least five years (or another specified timeframe) from the original delivery date.

This structure incentivizes community involvement while protecting CPC’s financial position and long-term interests.

This is just an idea - as I say - Your Mileage may Vary.

Where is the CPC incentive to produce chips at zero profit at the expense of chips at a profit?

 

[LeGold]

Where is the CPC incentive to produce chips at zero profit at the expense of chips at a profit?

Happy customers.......?

 

[Tight_Lay_DOWN]

Where is the CPC incentive to produce chips at zero profit at the expense of chips at a profit?

Don't say that to Mr. Wonderful.

Like any capital investment - you won't get instant profits if you make the investment yourself, so it's no different. Profits come later - plus you can depreciate the equipment (mold) producing a non cash expense. Good for cash flow.

Just a thought.

 

[Cratty]

This discussion about funding the Roman mold feels like a classic episode of Shark Tank, with Mark Cuban and Mr. Wonderful debating strategy.

1. Get an Exact Quote:

First, let’s obtain a detailed quote to know the exact cost of producing the Roman mold.

2. Community Fundraising:

Raise the necessary funds from the community, here. To simplify things, set a minimum investment limit—perhaps $5,000, $10,000, or higher. This will reduce the number of investors and make management more streamlined.

3. Profit Sharing Model:

• Once CPC starts selling chips using the Roman mold, all profits from those sales should go directly to the original investors until they recoup their initial investment.

• CPC will still be paid its production expenses, ensuring they don’t lose money on the process.

4. Long-Term Profit Sharing:

• After the full cost of the mold is repaid, CPC can begin keeping profits from the Roman mold sales.

• Original investors will continue to earn 10% of the profits as a royalty moving forward.

5. Investor Incentives:

To encourage larger contributions, consider offering a special bonus:

• Investors who contribute a significant amount (e.g., $15K, $20K, $25K) could gain the right to use the Roman mold at cost in perpetuity.

• Include a clause to prevent system abuse. For example, these investors wouldn’t be able to sell, lease, or loan out the chips for at least five years (or another specified timeframe) from the original delivery date.

This structure incentivizes community involvement while protecting CPC’s financial position and long-term interests.

This is just an idea - as I say - Your Mileage may Vary.

Controversial opinion.. but I for one have no interest in the roman mold. I say this because I assume the population that would add a new order just because of the availability (i.e. won't default to another mold) is likely smaller than it's made out to be here with forum members.

But regardless, we can likely do a bit of guesswork - If it's $75k for the molds and there's 50c per chip in rough profit (guess).. they'd need to make 150k chips to break even (likely 6 months to a year of ongoing production). That said, to David's point, if they are flush with orders for other molds it would need to be INCREMENTAL profit/pricing. But as most should know, price elasticity of demand kicks in and likely would see a pretty sharp reduction in orders to support.

A new mold introduction, like Roman, only really makes sense if they're struggling for orders - but assume there are much cheaper levers to pull than to go that route first (e.g. marketing/advertising budget, site changes, etc).

 

[Himewad]

Controversial opinion.. but I for one have no interest in the roman mold. I say this because I assume the population that would add a new order just because of the availability (i.e. won't default to another mold) is likely smaller than it's made out to be here with forum members.

But regardless, we can likely do a bit of guesswork - If it's $75k for the molds and there's 50c per chip in rough profit (guess).. they'd need to make 150k chips to break even (almost a years worth of production based upon past comments). That said, to David's point, if they are flush with orders for other molds it would need to be INCREMENTAL profit/pricing. But as most should know, price elasticity of demand kicks in and likely would see a pretty sharp reduction in orders to support.

A new mold introduction, like Roman, only really makes sense if they're struggling for orders - but assume there are much cheaper levers to pull than to go that route first (e.g. marketing/advertising budget, site changes, etc).

 

[Cratty]

 

[David Spragg]

Controversial opinion.. but I for one have no interest in the roman mold. I say this because I assume the population that would add a new order just because of the availability (i.e. won't default to another mold) is likely smaller than it's made out to be here with forum members.

But regardless, we can likely do a bit of guesswork - If it's $75k for the molds and there's 50c per chip in rough profit (guess).. they'd need to make 150k chips to break even (likely 6 months to a year of ongoing production). That said, to David's point, if they are flush with orders for other molds it would need to be INCREMENTAL profit/pricing. But as most should know, price elasticity of demand kicks in and likely would see a pretty sharp reduction in orders to support.

A new mold introduction, like Roman, only really makes sense if they're struggling for orders - but assume there are much cheaper levers to pull than to go that route first (e.g. marketing/advertising budget, site changes, etc).

Darn

I just used the proceeds of Mike's purchase to buy a company producing red, yellow & green widgets. Problem is some customers now want blue widgets. Before your post I was counting you in as an investor.

 

[chippitydoodah]

It would appear the best business model is to stop selling to the public and then release a "limited" supply out in 3 stages and then sell them on a website dedicated to that specific chip. I'm sure that earns more in 2 years than a decade of routine chip sales.

 

[CPC_Mike]

Nobody is retiring from money they made from making poker chips

What?!?!?! Now you're telling me? *rips up business model*. Anyone want to buy a poker chip manufacturing business?

 

[Tight_Lay_DOWN]

Haha - we would never buy one, because everybody has an opinion…

 

[CPC_Mike]

Darn

I just used the proceeds of Mike's purchase to buy a company producing red, yellow & green widgets. Problem is some customers now want blue widgets. Before your post I was counting you in as an investor.

I'm glad you said 'proceeds' and not 'profits'. If there were profits involved then I definitely screwed up somewhere. I knew I should have included a non-compete as well. I suck at this bizzieness stuff.

 

[David Spragg]

I'm glad you said 'proceeds' and not 'profits'. If there were profits involved then I definitely screwed up somewhere. I knew I should have included a non-compete as well. I suck at this bizzieness stuff.

Don't worry. My wife assures me there is a hidden non-compete clause in there